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Bill HB531

Ghost1958

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Kentucky

It is not a fact. That is not what the Ky constitution says. Once again, you are not reading what is written.

Well then, since they are all unconstitutional, you will be going right out and OC'ing into a school pretty soon, right? Come back and let me know how it works out for you. If you won't do it, you know you are wrong
.


I believe youve come "unhinged" lol.
Your better than that. We both know ky regardless that it does violate the state constitution has an illegal law prohibiting that without permission. And that they will illegally enforce it. No use to beat it on the state level, the Fed statute would still be there.

Saying do that or i know im wrong is like saying if you dont think a 380 is effective let me shoot you with it or your wrong.

Im not misreading the KSC .


Point is as written we are better off for this bill to die . Just on the introduction, unconstitutionally, of FOL signs if for no other reason.

Id support it and work to pass it without that but its there plain as day.
There isnt time in the session to rewrite it I dont think and if it isnt it will die in judicuary. Likely will anyway.
 
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Ghost1958

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Stop spewing this misinformation. Ky. does not only recognize the licenses of states that recognize our license. Ky. recognizes all license from every state, whether they recognize ours or not. The same "beauracrat" that would negotiate reciprocity agreements in HB 531 is the same person that does it today. Here is what KRS 237.110 says about reciprocity agreements today:

(e) The Department of Kentucky State Police shall, not later than thirty (30) daysafter July 15, 1998, and not less than once every twelve (12) months thereafter, make written inquiry of the concealed deadly weapon carryinglicensing authorities in each other state as to whether a Kentucky resident maycarry a concealed deadly weapon in their state based upon having a validKentucky concealed deadly weapon license, or whether a Kentucky residentmay apply for a concealed deadly weapon carrying license in that state basedupon having a valid Kentucky concealed deadly weapon license. TheDepartment of Kentucky State Police shall attempt to secure from each otherstate permission for Kentucky residents who hold a valid Kentucky concealeddeadly weapon license to carry concealed deadly weapons in that state, eitheron the basis of the Kentucky license or on the basis that the Kentucky licenseis sufficient to permit the issuance of a similar license by the other state. TheDepartment of Kentucky State Police shall enter into a written reciprocityagreement with the appropriate agency in each state that agrees to permitKentucky residents to carry concealed deadly weapons in the other state on thebasis of a Kentucky-issued concealed deadly weapon license or that will issuea license to carry concealed deadly weapons in the other state based upon aKentucky concealed deadly weapon license. If a reciprocity agreement isreached, the requirement to recontact the other state each twelve (12) monthsshall be eliminated as long as the reciprocity agreement is in force. Theinformation shall be a public record and shall be available to individualrequesters free of charge for the first copy and at the normal rate for openrecords requests for additional copies.(21) By March 1 of each year, the Department of Kentucky State Police shall submit astatistical report to the Governor, the President of the Senate, and the Speaker of theHouse of Representatives, indicating the number of licenses issued, revoked,suspended, and denied since the previous report and in total and also the number......

There is no reason that any of the reciprocity agreements that exist today will not exist if HB 531 passes and no reason it should effect those agreements in the future. This is a non-issue, just like the car carry at schools is a non-issue.

The lack of understanding of the contents of this bill is exactly the reason that I think it can be changed. Once the sponsors of it find out what the have gotten themselves into, they may be willing to listen to an easy way out. Tomorrow, I will be in Albert Robinsons office, in Frankfort, talking to him about the senate bill. On Wednesday, I will be in Hubert Collins' office, talking to him about the House bill. Thursday, I'll be in with Gerald Watkins, from the Judiciary Committee. I am glad to here that these people are getting an earfull from the people. It may make them easier to deal with.


In bold. What does that say? Based on IF the other state will honor a ky permit or issue one based on a ky permit.
Who is spewing misinfo?
 
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CharleyCherokee

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I had the same misunderstanding with that, but do notice that it says if our license is honored we will likewise honor theirs. It doesn't say if ours isn't honored we shall not honor theirs. The KSP has determined to honor all state licenses regardless. Also gutshot tell Gerald Watkins Charley Pulley said hello.
 

LEX_XDM40compact

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LEX, KY
Instead of it simply being Ky recognizes any state that recognizes us, the bill will have a beaucrat with KSP "negotiating" written agreements with other states.

Today I spoke with one of the heavy hitter co sponsors of this bill.
He had only been given a summary of the bill , been contacted by some low info NRA members who dont know what is in the bill to co sponsor it, assumed it was a pro carry bill since the NRA supports it and co sponsored it.

He DID NOT know the added fol sign, fines, penalties were in it.

Nor the striking out of the school lot vehicle provision. Once informed he is not nearly as certaim as Gutshot that sec 3.applis to schools.

If those changes are not written out of the bill entirely he will withdraw his sponsorship.

A bit more checking around has me VERYcomfortable that this bill , unless all three of those areas are put back as they were,
Unstrike the school parking lot provision
Leave signage and no gun sign law as is now,
Leave recoprosity as is now. This bill is going nowhere. Apparently emough of our legislators care about keeping ky gun friendly and not opening doors to future disasters to flatten this bill unless it becomes a simple no permit needed bill and nothing more.

Even is a few gun carriers are willing too jump over a cliff to get rid of permits.

Id urge folks to call or email the house judicuary members about the flaws in this bill and tell them you support it if it becomes a simple no permit needed bill.

Otherwise its not going to see the light of day.

It also came to my attention a bill of this type is not needed at all.
A simple bill repealing the law requiring a permit to cc, and leaving the ccdw process available for those that want one for travel is all that is needed.
The same could have been done im lieu of the present permit scheme back in the 90s and adding an optional permit to meet those eith recoprosity needs.
Not nearly the revenue in that though.

I dont understand how you are not understanding basic written English. The reciprocity will no longer be needed under this new law. YOU WOULD BE ABLE TO CARRY CONCEALED IN OUR STATE WITHOUT A PERMIT AS A VISITOR TO OUR STATE just like AZ and the other states allow, we already recognize EVERY state regardless and nothing with that is going to change, again you will NOT NEED a permit therefore reciprocity is not even needed for our state.

The reciprocity would only be needed for us to keep reciprocity with other states solely so us Kentucky residence with a CCDW can carry in other states while traveling etc, it will stay the same just being worded properly.

In regards to reciprocity :

Under this new proposed law KY would NOT NEED to honor any other states carry permit because YOU WOULD BE ABLE TO CARRY WITHOUT ONE, however nothing is changing KY will still honor all other states even tho it is not required.

It has ALWAYS been up to the OTHER state to accept KY permits, KY has NO control over what OTHER states honor or do not honor. The wording for the new law is to let us know what will happen in regards to KSP making an EFFORT to allow our permits to be accepted.

I really can not understand your issue with this at all..

Today I spoke with one of the heavy hitter co sponsors of this bill. .....Once informed he is not nearly as certaim as Gutshot that sec 3.applis to schools

Using a politician as advice on how the bill is worded? When we KNOW they are clearly lobbied for them? You really are starting to scare me.... What you need to be doing is giving you input and thought along with researching what our current law says vs what this new law is proposed. Again why would it make sure to outline that section UNDER the section in regards to schools? Its written pretty plain and dry.

Again plain English
The provisions of this section prohibiting the unlawful possession of a weapon on
school property shall not apply to:
(a) An adult who possesses a firearm in conformity with Section 3 of this Act

SHALL NOT APPLY TO AN ADULT WHO POSSESS A FIREARM IN CONFORMITY WITH SECTION 3 OF THIS ACT

And once again section 3
Section 3. KRS 237.106 is amended to read as follows:
(1) No person or organization, including but not limited to a public or private[an]
employer, who is the owner, lessee, or occupant of real property shall prohibit any
person who is legally entitled to possess a firearm from possessing a firearm, part of
a firearm, ammunition, or ammunition component in a vehicle on the property.

Clear, cut and dry. If SECTION 3 did not apply to SCHOOLS it would not be included in that section for SCHOOLS


You really are starting to worry me and I hope you do not take your tantrum to far down the spectrum and do not allow this bill to have a chance of being REVISED before Vetoed completely....

We are all on the same team.
 
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Ghost1958

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I dont understand how you are not understanding basic written English. The reciprocity will no longer be needed under this new law. YOU WOULD BE ABLE TO CARRY CONCEALED IN OUR STATE WITHOUT A PERMIT AS A VISITOR TO OUR STATE just like AZ and the other states allow, we already recognize EVERY state regardless and nothing with that is going to change, again you will NOT NEED a permit therefore reciprocity is not even needed for our state.

The reciprocity would only be needed for us to keep reciprocity with other states solely so us Kentucky residence with a CCDW can carry in other states while traveling etc, it will stay the same just being worded properly.



Using a politician as advice on how the bill is worded? When we KNOW they are clearly lobbied for them? You really are starting to scare me.... What you need to be doing is giving you input and thought along with researching what our current law says vs what this new law is proposed. Again why would it make sure to outline that section UNDER the section in regards to schools? Its written pretty plain and dry.

Again plain English


SHALL NOT APPLY TO AN ADULT WHO POSSESS A FIREARM IN CONFORMITY WITH SECTION 3 OF THIS ACT

And once again section 3


Clear, cut and dry. If SECTION 3 did not apply to SCHOOLS it would not be included in that section for SCHOOLS


You really are starting to worry me and I hope you do not take your tantrum to far down the spectrum and do not allow this bill to have a chance of being REVISED before Vetoed completely....

We are all on the same team.



I read fine. And when proven wrong I dont just yell you cant read and skip on to something else.

Im not having a tantrum. Im plainly stating that this bill has a snowballs chance in a hot place of seeing the light of day as written.

To be clear and please try to not mis read me again.

Risprosity is not a huge worry except for kentuckians losing some states they may carry in. Not what you keep on about as to others carrying in our state.
School lot vehicle carry ,,sec 3 may apply to schools and it may not. A co sponsor of the bill does not know, nor knew about FOL signs in the bill.
The FOL signs are a deal breaker. Both for most carriers and one of the main co sponsors, who wont co sponsor if that stays in the bill.

That means any change to our current gun signage laws FOL even a 1 penny fine.

Its highly unlikely that will be taken out as it was kept hidden for a reason. Trade permits for FOL signs. A restriction we have not had since statehood and no matter how many times you deny the KSC says what I quoted word for word, the general assembly has NO authority to levy a fine or charge for passing a no gun sign.

As long as that is in this bill in ANY shape or form its a dead bill.
Its removed which it wont be because that is the goal of ths bill and Ill help revive it.
Simple as that.
 

Ghost1958

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You got it perfectly. At this point, with all that you and I have both written on this, the only ones that don't get it are those that don't want to get it. Some people can not ever admit that they are wrong. We are all wrong sometimes. I share your concerns about the bill. With people screaming all of this, its going to be harder to convince the sponsors that it is salvageable. Using the politicians to justify anything is crazy, they are the ones that created this mess.

Oh more and more people are "getting it" by the min as we speak.

As far as poiticians I didnt use the co sponsor for advise, just pointed out the FOL and striking out of the school provision.

If its crazy to question if a sponsor knows what is in the bill why are you meeting them?

The bill is salvagable if All changes to the FOL signage is removed entirely.
If not its not.

It wont be because a minmum of checking around shows getting FOL in ky is THE goal of this bill.
If they cant get FOL signage thru the proposers if this bill or the senate mirror one have no reason to persue the bill.
Nor would this law survive the first challange to FOL signs because again, the General Assembly is state constitutionally not empowered to pass such penalties for carrying past a no gun sign,

And I assure you they will NEVER get FOL signs in this state.

Be nice if this was an honest bill instead of a backdoor effort to push more restriction. But its not.
 
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Ghost1958

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Im gonna duck out of this as I have work to do.
But few are posting on this but alot are viewing it.

To them I say this bill is a farce to trade permits for FOL. It obviously has been written not by the two proposers of it but an outside group. That a dem and a republican one in the senate one in the house propose matching bills should tip you off to that.
Even Gutshot has said as much in this thread.

Read the bill yourself. Not just a summary. It has many bad things but the main one that cant be word gamed is it simply trades permitless carry for force of law signs. With penalties.
Read no 7 of the Ky BOR. The bill puts FOL signage in ky when the state government has no authority to do so. Might be time to stand up and for once say enough is enough of gov over stepping its bounds.

If you think those fines and misdeanor charges will not be increased in the future until the law is struck down your kidding yourself.

Read the ky constitution BOR. No 7.
Read the two bills.
Then call the judulicuary commitee and urge them to remove all mention of FOL signs or kill the bills.

Or, we can join Texas and Ohio with FOL signs criminalizing our right to keep and bear arms in violation of the 2ND AMENDMENT and the Ky state constitution.

Lets keep our state one of the most carry friendly states in the nation.
This bill does the opposite.
 

BB62

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Whichever way this bill goes, the office holders can either get some learning as a takeaway, or have it offered to them: if you want "your" bill to have deeper and wider support from its inception, give groups such as KC3 (KY Coalition to Carry Concealed) an opportunity to view it before submitting it.

FOL = force of law.
 

Ghost1958

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Just off the phone with NRA.
They CLAIM they didnt know about the force of law signage , fines etc in the bill. And are working to get it taken out or will withdraw their support of the bill.

So either they knew full well what was in the bill and are crawdading once it was exposed and the firestorm started over this mess. Which I personally believe is the case.

Or the NRA does about as good a job researching the bills they support as they do evaluating politicians ratings ie Harry Reid and a host of othet anti gun politicians they give A and B ratings.

So we have if they are to be believed, the NRA working to make this a simple permitless carry bill with no added restrictons on carry.
Most co sponsors claiming they were duped and will get the added restrictions out of the bill or kill it.

With all those folks directly involved wanting the added changes out and a clean permittless carry bill instead it should happen.

If not this was a farce from the beginning.


Ill be speaking with a member of the Senate Judicuary this evening or tommorow urging that member to only move on the senate version if it can be made a clean permitless cc bill with no other changes. Or kill it if it csnt be fixed.
 
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hotrod

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Gutshot will have big news about this bill and changes he was able to facilitate today in Frankfort. I want to thank him for all the hard work he performed for KC3 and on behalf of the people of the Commonwealth. Thanks, Gutshot!
 

LEX_XDM40compact

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Gutshot will have big news about this bill and changes he was able to facilitate today in Frankfort. I want to thank him for all the hard work he performed for KC3 and on behalf of the people of the Commonwealth. Thanks, Gutshot!

Oh great now I will be glued to my chair the rest of the evening!

@Gutshot regardless what the changes and update is I wanna personally thank you for all the hard work you do for our great commonwealth when it comes to our right to keep and bear arms!
 

hotrod

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Oh great now I will be glued to my chair the rest of the evening!

@Gutshot regardless what the changes and update is I wanna personally thank you for all the hard work you do for our great commonwealth when it comes to our right to keep and bear arms!

I know what happened and I am still glued to my computer, patiently waiting!:banana:
 

LEX_XDM40compact

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Here it is!


  • Senator Albert Robinson is the sponsor of the SB 257, the permitless concealed carry bill. I met with Senator Robinson this morning to talk to him about some of the problems with this bill. He was stunned when I showed some of the things in the bill. He had never read it and didn’t know what was in it. He immediately got on the phone and called an NRA rep. and told them about the things I had told him. He then put me on the phone with them and we made arrangements to meet a few hours later, at the capitol.
  • We met outside the senate. He was a really nice guy and very apologetic about the bill. He said he was going up to the “attic” of the capitol to met with a “bill drafter” and write a new bill that will be substituted for the original bill tomorrow in the committee on Veterans, Military Affairs and Public Safety and asked if I’d go with him. I asked him if he meant the 4th floor and he said yes. I told him that we couldn’t go there. Only legislators and LRC staff could go there. He called his contact on the phone and she told him she would meet us at the elevator and escort us in. She was an attorney for the LRC. We started talking about the problems with SB257. I told them both what I thought needed changing. The lawyer said she just didn’t know where to start because so much needed to be changed. I reached into my briefcase and pulled out 5 sheets of paper that I had worked on the night before and told her to “just delete this and it will be OK” she looked at it, handed it to the NRA rep., he nodded at her and she just started typing a new bill. We talked about a few minor changes, and made most of them.
  • Here is what was changed:
  • Penalties for carrying passed a sign: GONE
  • Attorney General deciding what signs say and anything about signs: GONE
  • Specific wording about guns being allowed in your car on school property: BACK IN, JUST LIKE IT IS NOW.
  • There was some wording on the first page about places where you couldn’t carry. The wording was different that what we have always had before. It was worded so that not only could you not carry in places like a Police station, but couldn’t carry in the entire building if a Police Station was in any part of the building. We fixed that: GONE
  • These things weren’t just rewritten, they were completely deleted.


  • When we started to break up, the lawyer printed out 2 copies of the new bill and gave one to each of us. She then stopped and said, she should have printed another copy for Representative Collins, so he could change the house version to be the same. The NRA rep. looked at me and asked if I were meeting with Collins in the morning and I said yes, that I was. He said for me to just give him my copy.

    There is one possible glitch, in order to be substituted in a committee, a bill is supposed to be submitted 24 hours in advance. Committee Chairman Joe Bowen told us he’d give us until 4 o’clock. We didn’t finish until 4:47. The NRA rep said he’d take care of it. For anyone that wants to know, the committee meeting is at 12:00 tomorrow at the capitol annex.

  • Here is a link to our new permitless concealed carry bill( this is the copy Hubert Collins is getting in the morning). It is gutshot approved.:
  • https://drive.google.com/file/d/1sE...NOM9JMxc69_YdxXa4S2K3HPtd6Ud/view?usp=sharing

My friend, where are you located and can I buy you a beer? Your efforts , especially this time around for the things you do for our state is amazing! I like to think by going downtown here locally talking to my representatives, making phone calls and emails I am making a difference, but you my friend are truly on the front lines for us!

This is GREAT news. I really do hope these changes will keep the flow and give us a chance to celebrate.

If passed fully I am in favor of buying dinner for anyone and everyone here and celebrating!
 
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Ghost1958

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Looks pretty good.
One guestion Gutshot.
Sec 9 item 3
States " no criminal penalty will attach to carrying a concealed deadly weapon with a permit where one may be constitutionally carried" bit of paraphrase at the last but.
Is the part about with a permit an oversight? Or intentional where criminal penalties may attach if carrying concealed without a permit??

Other than that it looks pretty good.
Also may I copy the link to the new bill to share?
 
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Ghost1958

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We left that so I could have something to do next year. Of course, anyone that wants to copy the link may do so. That link won't be active forever, but should last a few months. You should be able to get a permanent link from the LRC, tomorrow.

Wasnt what I asked.
I was prepared to start spreading the word about the rewritten bill, and call back or meet with again the sponsors snd reps id convinced the original was a mess.
I asked a civil question. I got a smart aleck answer.
Im all for this bill as it is now but you want to pull tbe train by yourself who are I my friends and contacts to force our help on you now that we could suport the bill.



Apparently though its a good bill now just one guestion remains for inquiring minds.
If the senator did not know what was in it, I imagine Collins us going to say the same.
NRA swore to me they didnt know this evening.
So who wrote the bill that had no chance until "fixed". The janitor??
,
 

hotrod

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Wasnt what I asked.
I was prepared to start spreading the word about the rewritten bill, and call back or meet with again the sponsors snd reps id convinced the original was a mess.
I asked a civil question. I got a smart aleck answer.
Im all for this bill as it is now but you want to pull tbe train by yourself who are I my friends and contacts to force our help on you now that we could suport the bill.



Apparently though its a good bill now just one guestion remains for inquiring minds.
If the senator did not know what was in it, I imagine Collins us going to say the same.
NRA swore to me they didnt know this evening.
So who wrote the bill that had no chance until "fixed". The janitor??
,

I'm not big on internet frays, but, I think I'll step up here. Ghost, not sure if I know you, I want to make something clear. Gutshot works hard for our Commonwealth, for KC3 and gun rights. I don't know who at the NRA you are talking too, they wrote the bill and sent in their lobbyist to handle. When he talked to Gutshot he found how poorly written it was. Gutshot got it fixed and I am quite sure you weren't there to help. If you do not like the work he did, just say thanks and move on. As a board member of KC3 I know how much time we spend on the legislative pursuits. If you think you can help, stop complaining and join the board, we can use all the help we can get!!
 

Ghost1958

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I'm not big on internet frays, but, I think I'll step up here. Ghost, not sure if I know you, I want to make something clear. Gutshot works hard for our Commonwealth, for KC3 and gun rights. I don't know who at the NRA you are talking too, they wrote the bill and sent in their lobbyist to handle. When he talked to Gutshot he found how poorly written it was. Gutshot got it fixed and I am quite sure you weren't there to help. If you do not like the work he did, just say thanks and move on. As a board member of KC3 I know how much time we spend on the legislative pursuits. If you think you can help, stop complaining and join the board, we can use all the help we can get!!


Hotrod. Lets try this again.
I dont know Gutshot nor have a "fray" with him. Hes an unknown quantity to me up till now.
I do however know my rights concerning guns, and when they are about to be stepped on
If you go back read his posts to start with he was coming across as not liking thr sign changes etc but willing to compromise on them. Most gun carriers in ky are not. Im one of em.
Now aparently you know him so that would not put you on alert as it did me. To me he came across as defending the new bill, and trying to see it went thru regardless.

I and more gun owners than you know are very weary of compromise because we are always the ones giving an inch. And weary of both U.S. and state constitutions being ignored.
When he said the ky constitution didnt say what it plainly does, and was off to meet legislators it set me and others on edge.
That said. Apparently by not knowing him, I misconstrued alot of his commrnts. And Im sure being on the board of a.state gun board hes not used to being questioned or confrontrd here.

I do apologise for reading intentions into comments that apparently werent there.
I dont apologize for pointing out in its orginal form was a disaster. Or calling , texting and meeting all reps co spinsors etc i had time for to kill the orginal bill. Apparently nobody rea the stupid thing but the NRA and as usual they flat out lied to me this evening.

I have no complaints about what Gutshot did. Actually quite grateful . Its a long drive to Franfort and though I offered to do it the reps and judicuary members I spoke with assured me the bill would be rewritten or be scrapped.
I already have started spreading the word making a few calls tonight that the bill is now worthy to support and urging that.
But. What I asked about tonight is there. Its not a deal breaker. I was just curious why it was worded that way. Not a complaint just a question.
What I got was a snide coment in return.


Actually ive gotten guite a few you cant read, im unhinged etc from him.
You dont know me. Nor I you

In a nutshell Im sorry for misreading Gutshots intentions.
I am grateful for what he did.
I will push just as hard now to get this version of the bill thru as I did to kill the original version despite the response i got to a simple question.


Ill consider joining KC3

But ive founded and ran a 501c3 all voluteer kids charity for 10 yrs till stepping down that still helps sick kids all over ky today. Have several in your neck of the woods.

I might not fit in well if taking guff for a simple queston is required. I dont do that very well.
 
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