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"Criminals Will Attack Open Carriers First" = B.S.

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Fallschirjmäger

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Excerpted from The Armed Criminal in America:
Fifty-six percent of the felons surveyed agreed that “A criminal is not going to mess around with a victim he knows is armed with a gun;” 74% agreed that “One reason burglars avoid houses when people are at home is that they fear being shot.”

A 57% majority agreed that “Most criminals are more worried about meeting an armed victim than they are about running into the police.” In asking felons what they personally thought about while committing crimes, 34% indicated that they thought about getting “shot at by police” or “shot by victim.”

Of course, it is hard to determine if these numbers are accurate. Criminals lie, and the desire to "look tough" and appear fearless very likely suppressed the numbers. I suspect the actual percentages to be much higher.

©2014 by Dean Weingarten:
Available online for about $3.
cf Page 27 of this PDF
 
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WalkingWolf

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It's human nature to not want to get shot, with a very small percentage of exceptions. And then you get back to concealed carriers look just like victims, unless they conceal so poorly that everyone knows they have a gun.
 

b0neZ

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It's human nature to not want to get shot, with a very small percentage of exceptions. And then you get back to concealed carriers look just like victims, unless they conceal so poorly that everyone knows they have a gun.
But but but tactical advantage

Element of surprise

They can draw just as fast

Doesn't draw any unwanted attention

Etc
 

Rusty Young Man

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Then why do banks, liquor stores etc all hire armed guard that openly carry?
You mean you guys don't know? Those guards are there to attract the bullets and attention of would-be robbers while the REAL guards (who are CCing and pretending to be in hysterics while cowering behind the desks) get the element of super tactical surprise on the bad guys.

:rolleyes::lol:
 
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marshaul

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Of course, it is hard to determine if these numbers are accurate. Criminals lie, and the desire to "look tough" and appear fearless very likely suppressed the numbers. I suspect the actual percentages to be much higher.
Armchair pop-psychology, and exactly the reason why statistical social "sciences" tend to be (are?) so worthless.

Maybe they want to look meek before those who can potentially influence parole hearings, and so under-report their willingness to risk police/victim gunfire.

That said, my intuition tells me that most criminals seek easy targets.
 

Kopis

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You mean you guys don't know? Those guards are there to attract the bullets and attention of would-be robbers while the REAL guards (who are CCing and pretending to be in hysterics while cowering behind the desks) get the element of super tactical surprise on the bad guys.

:rolleyes::lol:
Ooooooooohhhhh now I know!
 

JohnC76

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Then why do banks, liquor stores etc all hire armed guard that openly carry?
You can get on YouTube and see plenty of security guards get screwed over that oc.

I seen one at a jewelry store that was holding a shotgun, probably in South America, they walked up on him like normal guys going in the door, then whipped out a gun shot him, disarmed him, robbed the place and left.

So OC'img doesn't necessarily make you more safe or scare off armed robbers.
 

JohnC76

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Now I'm not saying OC'ing specifically makes you a target in every instance, but in some cases, it is a disadvantage.

Like an armed security guard. If I'm going to rob the place he protects, he is my first target to either kill or detain and disarm. Especially if it is a planned robbery such as a jewelry store.

Another recent example: http://bearingarms.com/ill-taking-open-carrier-robbed-gunthe-first-time-carries-gunpoint/

You just can't expect oc'ing to scare off armed robbers.

As the public arms itself, you have to expect some criminals are going to plan enough ahead to still hold you up and do their crime anyway.

All you have to do is put yourself on the other side and think for a second how you'd sneak up and rob an oc'er of his valuables and gun.

In some cases, a thief might see a gun as a good score since a lot of people carry plastic instead of cash and the average handgun costs $400-$600 easy.
 

ron73440

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Now I'm not saying OC'ing specifically makes you a target in every instance, but in some cases, it is a disadvantage.

Like an armed security guard. If I'm going to rob the place he protects, he is my first target to either kill or detain and disarm. Especially if it is a planned robbery such as a jewelry store.

Another recent example: http://bearingarms.com/ill-taking-open-carrier-robbed-gunthe-first-time-carries-gunpoint/

You just can't expect oc'ing to scare off armed robbers.

As the public arms itself, you have to expect some criminals are going to plan enough ahead to still hold you up and do their crime anyway.

All you have to do is put yourself on the other side and think for a second how you'd sneak up and rob an oc'er of his valuables and gun.

In some cases, a thief might see a gun as a good score since a lot of people carry plastic instead of cash and the average handgun costs $400-$600 easy.
Are you a big "element of surprise" believer?

You're talking about security guards and added it to ONE case that made the news. That has a few shady details, but even if we take it at face value, it's ONE case.

For the average person OC'ing is safe and if it was really making targets out of us then the news would trumpet that as a reason to outlaw OC.

The most dangerous situation an OC'er is likely to be involved in is with an ignorant cop.
 

WalkingWolf

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Just want to remind all of you that don't know, most forum members are already aware, I have Wilmington bridges for sale. And this month only I have prime real estate in China for sale.:banana:
 

Primus

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Just want to remind all of you that don't know, most forum members are already aware, I have Wilmington bridges for sale. And this month only I have prime real estate in China for sale.:banana:
If you sell your bridge what will you live under?

:D
 

Kopis

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Another recent example: http://bearingarms.com/ill-taking-open-carrier-robbed-gunthe-first-time-carries-gunpoint/

You just can't expect oc'ing to scare off armed robbers.
i think it's pretty obvious that was a straw purchase and a way to cover his tracks. There's a lot of info there that doesnt make any sense. At any rate, I do expect OCing to scare off the majority of would be attackers. the vast majority would much rather find an easier target.

I can just as easily show you a situation where OC by two gentleman did in fact deter several armed robbers: http://www.examiner.com/article/open-carry-deters-armed-robbery-kennesaw


a few months ago i was at a gas station after a movie filling up. It was around midnight and i had my g17 on my side. two less than reputable looking guys started to approach me and say "what's up?", i didn't have a good feeling and said, just heading home guys and rested my hand on the G17 while peering over my shoulder. I saw a third guy milling around about 20' in the background. They looked down at the glock and mumbled something then made a motion i assumed was for the guy behind me. I have no doubt had i been CCing, it would have been next to impossible to deter those guys without drawing my weapon.

I don't believe OC is the only way to carry, there are times for nicer dinners, or crowded environments when i conceal but most of the time, i much prefer OC. You still have to have very good situational awareness no matter if you OC or CC. Neither will save you if you aren't aware of what's going on around you.
 

moonie

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Now I'm not saying OC'ing specifically makes you a target in every instance, but in some cases, it is a disadvantage.

Like an armed security guard. If I'm going to rob the place he protects, he is my first target to either kill or detain and disarm. Especially if it is a planned robbery such as a jewelry store.

Another recent example: http://bearingarms.com/ill-taking-open-carrier-robbed-gunthe-first-time-carries-gunpoint/

You just can't expect oc'ing to scare off armed robbers.

As the public arms itself, you have to expect some criminals are going to plan enough ahead to still hold you up and do their crime anyway.

All you have to do is put yourself on the other side and think for a second how you'd sneak up and rob an oc'er of his valuables and gun.

In some cases, a thief might see a gun as a good score since a lot of people carry plastic instead of cash and the average handgun costs $400-$600 easy.
Obviously you are new here, I'm just going to sit back and watch this one...
 

The Truth

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Now I'm not saying OC'ing specifically makes you a target in every instance, but in some cases, it is a disadvantage.
You mean one case. In Asia. And it was a security guard. Right. Totally relevant.

Like an armed security guard. If I'm going to rob the place he protects, he is my first target to either kill or detain and disarm. Especially if it is a planned robbery such as a jewelry store.
A security guard guarding a jewelry store - again, horrible red herring.

This story has been torn to shreds here. I would find the thread for you, but it's a fairly simple search. The story reeks of BS.

You just can't expect oc'ing to scare off armed robbers.
Yes I can.

As the public arms itself, you have to expect some criminals are going to plan enough ahead to still hold you up and do their crime anyway.
They can surely try. They'll get a double tap to the chest and one to the dome as a result of my heightened situational awareness whilst open carrying, however. You'll find that most of us are quite well practiced and not just making a political statement or showing off.

All you have to do is put yourself on the other side and think for a second how you'd sneak up and rob an oc'er of his valuables and gun.
If you can honestly say that if you were a criminal you would specifically target an armed victim, I fear for your safety and the safety of those around you.

In some cases, a thief might see a gun as a good score since a lot of people carry plastic instead of cash and the average handgun costs $400-$600 easy.
Again, good luck buddy. Double tap to the chest and one to the dome. Hope it's worth it! Believe it or not, some criminals actually value their lives.
 
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marshaul

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Looks like it was Asia

He had a shotgun slung over his shoulder.

http://youtu.be/YR7SleSijsM
Whereas if he had been concealing the shotgun, the element of surprise would have saved him. :lol:

But seriously, totally different threat model for the guard, different risk/reward analysis for the criminals.

I'm not posting myself on dark street corners next to piles of cash, giving people opportunity to prepare a crew and tactics for a successful robbery. I'm doing the things I ordinarily do.

With this in mind, and with regard to this hypothetical hardcore criminal you have in mind, you're talking about a person who A: would casually murder in public for $400 in property, and B: would do so with a fair chance of getting killed himself. I ask you: how has this person not already been going on a killing spree since he woke up this morning? I'm the first person he saw with $400 worth of property, all day? Why aren't cops routinely being pre-emptively shot just to have their guns stolen? And, if we are talking about a guy on a killing spree, how am I better off having to fumble my gun out of concealment?

Think, man. Think!
 
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