"Criminals Will Attack Open Carriers First" = B.S.

[solus]

You don't think a CC'er couldn't reach for his or her weapon and put a hand on their it to have the same effect? Aside from that, OC'ing didn't deter your attackers right off either.

snip...

It's not hard for me to get my hand on my gun quickly at all.

sure you're not related to another forum member (g21sfpistol) who suffers under the same misgivings?

btw, I'm not attacking you either especially since you carry an 5.7

and welcome to the forum, especially after your rocky start on the other thread, it is good to see you are making friends elsewhere on the OC forum

ipse

 

[JohnC76]

None of us think it's a magic talisman. What we're saying is that your objections are poorly thought-out.

Sure. Some criminal could decide to target me for my gun. It's probably happened before (though none of the cases you've submitted so far are kosher).

But you know what's a lot more common than hardened, dedicated, die-hard criminals picking the hardest target around for a meager reward at an immense of risk? You guessed it: lazy, opportunistic criminals looking for the easiest mark around so they can make a quick buck while minimizing risk.

So, you say I make myself a target to the one die-hard criminal by OCing. Perhaps. But then, you make yourself a target to the hundreds of opportunistic criminals by CCing and, thereby, presenting an apparently unarmed and (therefore) soft target.

Which is the greater risk? Well, the stakes are life-or-death either way, aren't they? And the risk you, the CCer, assume is numerically more prevalent. This is easy to demonstrate: you search high and low to find one or two - probably BS - stories of OCers robbed, but I could with trivial effort present dozens of cases of CCers being robbed (as you well know). By logic no less rigorous than yours, these CCers have all been "targeted" "for" being (apparently) unarmed, and therefore "for" concealing a firearm they could have worn openly.

And, once a criminal does decide he likes you, by the time your concealed weapon has a chance to deter him you've been backed into a corner and left with little choice but to shoot the guy.

You wanna share anecdotes? Remember that CCer who killed some 10 year old kid who tried to rob him with an airsoft gun? Justified, sure, but don't you think that CCer would have preferred to not shoot a 10-year-old (however justified)? And don't you suspect that that 10-year-old would have not tried to rob, using his toy, someone he knew to have a real gun?

Or, what about those guys who planned to rob a Waffle House down in GA, only to be deterred by a couple customers carrying handguns? The criminals were themselves armed, as we learned when they were arrested out back. What were they doing, you ask, hanging around behind the Waffle House with guns and criminal intent? That's right: waiting for the armed citizens to leave. How do you imagine that would have played out had the customers been concealed carrying? I figure a gunfight, at best.

Life is risk. Pick your risk, accept the consequences. From where I sit, though, the risk you've chosen seems like the greater one.

That's why I said:

I'm not arguing with anyone. I don't have a belief that one is more safe than the other when carrying concealed or open.

But to deny the possibility you might get robbed anyway, for your wallet and gun is like a cop thinking his badge and gun will keep anyone from ever attacking or trying to kill him.

Example:

If you OC and they want your gun bad enough, they'll try to rob you for it. It doesn't take rocket science to figure how to sneak up with a gun and surprise someone who is distracted or unaware of their surroundings to steal their wallet and gun. Sure, you might scare off a few weaklings, but you might attract one looking for a new gun. Who's to say either way what any of us will experience in our lifetimes. Anything is possible and if you deny that, well, that's on you.

 

[WalkingWolf]

Of course your maneuver, while undeniably cool, pretty much means you have to go around slinging your jacket back and grabbing your gun at anyone who looks remotely suspicious in order to have the same effect as OC.

Recent history has shown that this provides a serious potential to net you a brandishing or assault charge (depending on the state).

Why would anyone do that if they are concealing, it removes the element of tactikewl defensive surprise. OC is bad so brandishing is good...:lol::lol::lol:

 

[JohnC76]

sure you're not related to another forum member (g21sfpistol) who suffers under the same misgivings?

btw, I'm not attacking you either especially since you carry an 5.7

and welcome to the forum, especially after your rocky start on the other thread, it is good to see you are making friends elsewhere on the OC forum

ipse

Not related.

I carry an assortment of pistols. Just whatever I feel like, I carry. But those are the main 3. I've heard all the nonsense about the Five-seveN, but I think the Fort Hood terrorist shooting showed us what we need to know about the leathality of the round from a pistol.

Rocky start?

I think the welcome wagon, well, wasn't very welcoming.

The issue there was some territorialness and lack of reading comprehension because the natives here were blinded by lack of post count and wanted to run off a n00b for posting a Pro-2A fundraiser for his very first post, instead of paying attention to the subject and taking the time to investigate the facts before coming up with conspiracies of who he was, what his intent was, etc.

That is my humble opinion based upon the facts I observed.

 

[The Truth]

I love five-sevens but I still think you're trollin'. There is a simple question to ask here: Which is MORE of a deterrent - CC or OC?

Have fun.

 

[JohnC76]

Of course your maneuver, while undeniably cool, pretty much means you have to go around slinging your jacket back and grabbing your gun at anyone who looks remotely suspicious in order to have the same effect as OC.

Recent history has shown that this provides a serious potential to net you a brandishing or assault charge (depending on the state).

detectives and undercover cops do it successful. Tell me again why undercover cops don't OC? Hmmm....

If that is how you react while open carrying, putting you hand on your gun as if to say your about to draw at anyone who looks "remotely suspicious." I'd say you're paranoid.

Furthermore, the same brandishing or assault law that applies to me, applies to you, too. Me flipping my jacket out of the way and putting my hand on the grip is the same as you reaching for your gun and placing your hand on your grip, regardless of OC or CC.

 

[JohnC76]

I love five-sevens but I still think you're trollin'. There is a simple question to ask here: Which is MORE of a deterrent - CC or OC?

Have fun.

That depends on the thug. As a non-thug, I can't accurately answer that.

I could speculate that it depends on a lot of variables. How hungry thy are, how bad they might be fienin for dope, etc.

 

[Grapeshot]

You don't think a CC'er couldn't reach for his or her weapon and put a hand on their it to have the same effect? Aside from that, OC'ing didn't deter your attackers right off either.

I'm not attacking you. What you did worked in your situation. But I think the outcome would be the same for a CC'er. That's all I'm trying to say.

Cooler months, I carry a full size Glock 21 45acp, or FN Five-seveN OWB covered by my jacket, so slinging it back and sticking a hand on the gun would be easy. On the same token, I wear my Springfield XDs 45acp in a Tagua 4 in 1 OWB with my shirt pulled over it in the summer. It's not hard for me to get my hand on my gun quickly at all.

That's why I said:

But to deny the possibility you might get robbed anyway, for your wallet and gun is like a cop thinking his badge and gun will keep anyone from ever attacking or trying to kill him.

Example:

If you OC and they want your gun bad enough, they'll try to rob you for it. It doesn't take rocket science to figure how to sneak up with a gun and surprise someone who is distracted or unaware of their surroundings to steal their wallet and gun. Sure, you might scare off a few weaklings, but you might attract one looking for a new gun. Who's to say either way what any of us will experience in our lifetimes. Anything is possible and if you deny that, well, that's on you.

First you suggest brandishing as a self-defense manuvere, then suggest that the BG can sneak up on you. Conclusion = you can scare him away with your quick hands faster than he can get the drop on you. You're no different than one who claims to be able to draw from concealment faster than others OCing.

You use straw arguments, red herrings, and unconfirmed rare examples. Facts we hold in high esteem - not so much unsubstantiated opinions.

You might wish to rethink your approach here and not game us. That's a nice way of saying trolls are not appreciated.

 

[The Truth]

detectives and undercover cops do it successful. Tell me again why undercover cops don't OC? Hmmm....

Maybe because an undercover cop is trying to hide his intention, whereas an OCing citizen is not. For realzies though dude, you're either a bad troll or you just don't think very hard before you post.

If that is how you react while open carrying, putting you hand on your gun as if to say your about to draw at anyone who looks "remotely suspicious." I'd say you're paranoid.

More probably intentional ignorance. Do some research on state specific brandishing laws. You clearly have zero knowledge on the subject.

Furthermore, the same brandishing or assault law that applies to me, applies to you, too. Me flipping my jacket out of the way and putting my hand on the grip is the same as you reaching for your gun and placing your hand on your grip, regardless of OC or CC.

No one is arguing the negative...

 

[The Truth]

That depends on the thug. As a non-thug, I can't accurately answer that.

I could speculate that it depends on a lot of variables. How hungry thy are, how bad they might be fienin for dope, etc.

So basically, you know the answer, but against your better judgement and in protection of your ego you will not admit that you are wrong - and generalizing OC very weakly.

 

[JohnC76]

First you suggest brandishing as a self-defense manuvere, then suggest that the BG can sneak up on you. Conclusion = you can scare him away with your quick hands faster than he can get the drop on you. You're no different than one who claims to be able to draw from concealment faster than others OCing.

You use straw arguments, red herrings, and unconfirmed rare examples. Facts we hold in high esteem - not so much unsubstantiated opinions.

You might wish to rethink your approach here and not game us. That's a nice way of saying trolls are not appreciated.

Wrong.

Reading farther back to the post I was responding to, he suggested placing his hand on his OC weapon was enough to get the BG's scared away as an example of OC scaring away BG's. I merely stated, in the same situation, I could do the same with my CC weapon by moving my jacket back and placing my hand on my gun just the same.

Nowhere did I say could draw from concealment faster than an OC'er.

 

[Grapeshot]

Wrong.

Reading farther back to the post I was responding to, he suggested placing his hand on his OC weapon was enough to get the BG's scared away as an example of OC scaring away BG's. I merely stated, in the same situation, I could do the same with my CC weapon by moving my jacket back and placing my hand on my gun just the same.

Nowhere did I say could draw from concealment faster than an OC'er.

That is brandishing or assault in most (all?) states and in violation of forum rules.

Nor did I, which you should be quite aware - I said you were no different than one that stated that.

Patience all used up - you have incoming mail. It would be good to heed it.