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Found another "NO WEAPONS" sign

Bullbuster

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I was sitting in the car waiting for my friend who was inside whenI seen the "NO WEAPONS" sticker for the first time. At the corner of Birdneck and General Booth blvd in Va Beach at the gas station next to McDonald's. (can't remember if its a Texaco or Conico) I seen the little 3"x3" sticker on the upper right side of the right double door. I have OC'd and CC'd in there at least a dozen times over the last month and nothing was ever said when OC'n.

I asked my buddy about it and he said its been there for a long time yet it looked new. He and I got into it as he said because they sell alcohol they can ban whatever they wanted. He ain't too keen on OC but would rather CC himself. Ain't no changing his mind I've tried for a long time. I wasn't caring and we needed to get back to the house soI didn't go in and ask about it. I was looking at stopping by today and asking.
 

skidmark

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he said because they sell alcohol they can ban whatever they wanted.
The things some folks believe that just are not so.:shock:

Would it be worth the effort to try to educate folks like that? Experience says most of the time it is like trying to teach a pig to sing.

At least you know what you are dealing with regarding your friend.

It's sometiomes of questionable value to discuss inconspicuous signs, even when you have OC'd/CC'd there without problems in the past. There's always the risk that they will start enforcing the sign. Your choice of what to do - let us know what you decide to do and how it turned out.

stay safe.

skidmark
 

ProShooter

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skidmark wrote:
Would it be worth the effort to try to educate folks like that? Experience says most of the time it is like trying to teach a pig to sing.
H1_Pig_logo.gif
 

mobeewan

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It was probably a Texaco station. They bought up a lot of the Crown stations around here. I noticed the Crown stations had the stickers you described about acouple years ago. Never paid them any mind since I CC most of the time. :D
 

kenny

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If anyone is ever arrested because of one of these signs I sure would like to know. I am sort of an expert on signage and egress and ingress. I think we could have the case thrown out and end up better off for it. User or any other legal types have any thought on the topic?
 

wylde007

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kenny wrote:
If anyone is ever arrested because of one of these signs I sure would like to know.
There is no grounds for arrest. You can be escorted off the premises and told not to return.

Your defense: I did not see any sign.

The best thing to do is reduce your patronage to such establishments down to an acceptable level... say, zero.
 

kenny

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"There is no grounds for arrest. You can be escorted off the premises and told not to return.

Your defense:
I did not see any sign.

The best thing to do is reduce your patronage to such establishments down to an acceptable level... say, zero."



Arrest yes, conviction no. I think perhaps you may have not understood my post. I was looking for a legal eye response. You can be arrested for anything, it is the conviction that counts.
 

wylde007

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kenny wrote:
You can be arrested for anything, it is the conviction that counts.
You can only be arrested for breaking the law. A LEO could FABRICATE an offense and say you broke the law... but he would have to lie in order to do so. And we all know that NEVER happens, right?

At least that used to be true.

Failing to notice a teensy-weensy little sign in a window out of view of common observation doesn't count as breaking the law. Any reasonable officer of the peace would recognize that.

Yes, yes, Dan has been arrested illegally. I said a reasonable officer... reasonably intelligent and knowledgeable of the law... will not arrest.

They can ask you to leave. If you refuse, then they can arrest you for trespassing.

Until then, I cannot be convinced to agree with you.
 

kenny

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wylde007 wrote:
kenny wrote:
You can be arrested for anything, it is the conviction that counts.
You can only be arrested for breaking the law. A LEO could FABRICATE an offense and say you broke the law... but he would have to lie in order to do so. And we all know that NEVER happens, right?

At least that used to be true.

Failing to notice a teensy-weensy little sign in a window out of view of common observation doesn't count as breaking the law. Any reasonable officer of the peace would recognize that.

Yes, yes, Dan has been arrested illegally. I said a reasonable officer... reasonably intelligent and knowledgeable of the law... will not arrest.

They can ask you to leave. If you refuse, then they can arrest you for trespassing.

Until then, I cannot be convinced to agree with you.
Sorry but you are getting my original on topic question off topic. I was looking for a lawyer type to respond. Who the hell brought of Dan. I just wish some of you wanna bes for once would keep a topic on topic.
 

wylde007

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The last thing I "wanna-be" is an attorney. Sorry I didn't answer the question the way you liked.

And since you're not the OP, I really don't care.
 

skidmark

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Don't any of you read the law anymore?

From www.virginia1774.com , one of the best places to find stuff like this: (underlining added by me for emphasis)
[font=Arial,Helvetica][size=+1]
[align=left][font=Arial,Helvetica][size=+1]3) [/size][/font]Private Property and Laws/regulations
[/align]
[align=left]18.2-308(O) "The granting of a concealed handgun permit shall not thereby authorize the possession of any handgun or other weapon on property or in places where such possession is otherwise prohibited by law or is prohibited by the owner of private property." [/align]
[align=left]Private business owners must prominently and visibly post that they prohibit firearms at the entrance of the store or verbally tell you of any restrictions.The posting must be displayed so that an average person would be able to see it. Under current case law concerning trespass in general, the Virginia Court of Appeals has stated in Jerry Andrew Lipscomb v. Commonwealth, Va. App. (2001 Unpublished):
[/align]
[align=left]
[size=+1]"Code 18.2-119 provides that "f any person without authority goes upon or remains upon the lands, buildings or premises of another, or any portion or area thereof, . . . after having been forbidden to do so by a sign or signs posted by [the owner] . . . , he shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor." This statute "has been uniformly construed to require a willful trespass." Reed v. Commonwealth, 6 Va. App. 65, 70, 366 S.E.2d 274, 278 (1988). "'Willful' generally means an act done with a bad purpose, without justifiable excuse, or without ground for believing it is lawful. The term denotes '"an act which is intentional, or knowing, or voluntary, as distinguished from accidental."'" Ellis v. Commonwealth, 29 Va. App. 548, 554, 513 S.E.2d 453, 456 (1999) (quoting Snead v. Commonwealth, 11 Va. App. 643, 646, 400 S.E.2d 806, 807 (1991) (quoting United States v. Murdock, 290 U.S. 389, 394, 54 S. Ct. 223, 225, 78 L. Ed. 2d 381 (1933), overruled on other grounds, Murphy v. Waterfront Comm'n, 378 U.S. 52, 84 S. Ct. 1594, 12 L. Ed. 2d 678 (1964))). "'Criminal intent is an essential element of the statutory offense of trespass, even though the statute is silent as to intent . . . .'" Reed, 6 Va. App. at 71, 366 S.E.2d at 278 (quoting 75 Am.Jur.2d Trespass 87 (1974)).[/size]




[/align]
[align=left][size=+1]....This evidence also fails to establish that appellant saw the no trespassing signs or intended to trespass by remaining in the car. Because the Commonwealth failed to exclude all reasonable hypotheses of innocence flowing from the evidence, we reverse and dismiss appellant's conviction."[/size][/align]


[align=left][size=+1]See Also McClam v. Commonwealth, Va. App. (2004 Unpublished).[/size][/align]​

[align=left]So, the answer to your question is, There is no requirement that you have to be told verbally to leave before you can be charged with trespass if there was a sign saying you could not enter with a handgun - so long as that sign was displayed so that an average person would be able to see it.[/align]
[align=left][/align]
[align=left]Owner/manager/clerk calls the cops, cop sees the sign in the upper right-hand corner of the door, sees you entered with a handgun when the sign says you were not permitted to do so, and you are, using the legal term, toast. Virginia Court of Appeals says so, and no lower court is going to buck that precedent.[/align]
[align=left][/align]
[align=left]Don't need to be an attorney to read the law and figure out what it means. In case anybody asks, I am a lawyer - one that is versed in the law and its application. I'm not an attorney - one admitted to the bar and allowed byprivilege to charge for legal advice.[/align]
[align=left][/align]
[align=left]stay safe.[/align]
[align=left][/align]
[align=left]skidmark[/align]
[align=left][/align][/size][/font]
 

TFred

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But Skidmark, from your own post:

[font="Arial,Helvetica"][size="+1"][size="+1"]....This evidence also fails to establish that appellant saw the no trespassing signs or intended to trespass by remaining in the car. Because the Commonwealth failed to exclude all reasonable hypotheses of innocence flowing from the evidence, we reverse and dismiss appellant's conviction."

[/size]
How does a cop seeing a sign prove that you saw the same sign? I reach the exact opposite conclusion from reading the same quotes you provide.

TFred

[/size][/font]
 

TFred

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IANAL, but from reading the parts of the case law related to "willful" violation, all you need to do is get in the habit of pulling out your cell phone and glancing at the screen to check for messages each time you enter the door of a mall or a business.

If push comes to shove, the security camera will show that you were not reading the door signs, but you were looking at your cell phone as you entered the building. Poof, there goes any hope of someone "proving" you saw a sign.

And remember, IANAL... but it makes sense to me! ;)

TFred
 

Bullbuster

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OK this a a bit OT even for my OP.

Just above the "NO WEAPON" sign is a "NO SMOKING" sign. On a majority of my stop in's I have seen staff standing in front of this very same door smoking. So one could actually say its unenforceable being the staff at such gas station doesn't even comply. (Just making an example)

I was really busy yesterday and didn't get to stop by butI will be today and talk to the manager about it. hopefully even get some sort of policy in writing.



Skidmark-Good post very helpfull.



edit for typo
 

TexasNative

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While I don't feel that armed customers need to investigate every possible nook and cranny where a "No Guns" sign might be hidden, I think we do have an obligation to keep our eyes open for such signs. Just as an example, let's say there's an 8 1/2" by 11" No Guns" sign on a single-door entrance at 5' above the ground. A reasonable person really couldn't miss it. Willfully ignoring such an obvious sign is just showing contempt for the owner's property rights.

I prefer the approach advocated by wylde and many others: if they have such a sign, they don't want my business, so I'll just go elsewhere. No reason to get anywhere near the question of trespassing.

~ Boyd
 

skidmark

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TFred wrote:
IANAL, but from reading the parts of the case law related to "willful" violation, all you need to do is get in the habit of pulling out your cell phone and glancing at the screen to check for messages each time you enter the door of a mall or a business.

If push comes to shove, the security camera will show that you were not reading the door signs, but you were looking at your cell phone as you entered the building. Poof, there goes any hope of someone "proving" you saw a sign.

And remember, IANAL... but it makes sense to me! ;)

TFred


Not going to fly. See the decision from the Va Court of appeals and read the wording: "The posting must be displayed so that an average person would be able to see it.

Who is this "average person"? Since it's a misdemeanor offense you are going to have to let the judge look at a picture of the door and decide if "an average person" would be able to see it. It does not mean that you needed to see the sign - merely that this fictitious "average person" would have been able to see it.

I'll give TFred and the rest of you points for imagination, but will also have to deduct points for lack of reading comprehension. Final grade: F+.

stay safe.

skidmark

*started to edit, but decided to make another post below
 
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