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I have been thinking about open carry, but still undecided due to social pressure.

richbuff

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 21, 2018
Messages
23
Location
Arizona
I have been thinking a long time about open carry, but am still undecided due to elevated unsupportive social pressure.

My problem is threats that are much more commonly encountered than two legged. Four legged dangerous animals at large on the street; that is the issue for me. I walk 1,000 miles every 5.5 months in single family residential neighborhoods in a nice medium size town in Arizona. That is the average time/distance that I have an unpredictable, uncontrolled four legged dangerous threat targeting me at high velocity invading my very small/short personal defense space/time. Yes, it is very very scary.

Concealed carry: I need a certain amount of time to get my hand on my self defense firearm. That amount of time directly translates to critical time/distance that the high velocity threat can completely close in on me before I can successfully level my defense at it.

Open carry: Smaller amounts of precious tenths of a second are needed to get ready to discharge immediately. I know that an ambush threat at much faster speed than I can evade presents a not very favorable chance of successfully defending against, even with a hand held firearm. Every tenth of a second counts when personal defense space is invaded at high velocity.

Unsupportive social pressure levels: Extremely elevated.

How much should I care about what family, friends and local organizations think of me if I decide to open carry?
 

solus

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2013
Messages
7,730
Location
here nc
I have been thinking a long time about open carry, but am still undecided due to elevated unsupportive social pressure.

My problem is threats that are much more commonly encountered than two legged. Four legged dangerous animals at large on the street; that is the issue for me. I walk 1,000 miles every 5.5 months in single family residential neighborhoods in a nice medium size town in Arizona. That is the average time/distance that I have an unpredictable, uncontrolled four legged dangerous threat targeting me at high velocity invading my very small/short personal defense space/time. Yes, it is very very scary.

Concealed carry: I need a certain amount of time to get my hand on my self defense firearm. That amount of time directly translates to critical time/distance that the high velocity threat can completely close in on me before I can successfully level my defense at it.

Open carry: Smaller amounts of precious tenths of a second are needed to get ready to discharge immediately. I know that an ambush threat at much faster speed than I can evade presents a not very favorable chance of successfully defending against, even with a hand held firearm. Every tenth of a second counts when personal defense space is invaded at high velocity.

Unsupportive social pressure levels: Extremely elevated.

How much should I care about what family, friends and local organizations think of me if I decide to open carry?
First, welcome to the forum...

second, get animal repellent, no not pepper spray but stuff designed to repel dogs, if you are only concerned about animals oh and carry a staff. shooting someone's 'pet' without being physically mauled could land you in hot judicial water even if you felt 'scared'.

third, you used the term 'unsupported' whatever being elevated several times...might you define what you mean with the term, e.g., family-wife-kiddos; friends-good friends-acquaintances; local organizations-Sams-Starbucks-COSTO-local mom & pop merchants?

Sorry except for the family, i would believe i would file those concerns under "W" of who gives a rat's derriere! as long as you can legally carry in your community...why are you that insecure where you worry about things like social pressure...what will occur, the social community won't let you run on the sidewalks or in the streets? come on!

Fourth, try carrying in OC friendly places, WalMart, Sams, with a friend and enjoy the fact nobody is doing a finger point like...

sutherland.jpg

again welcome and enjoy the camaraderie!!
 

OC Freedom

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2014
Messages
646
Location
ADA County, ID
I have been thinking a long time about open carry, but am still undecided due to elevated unsupportive social pressure.

My problem is threats that are much more commonly encountered than two legged. Four legged dangerous animals at large on the street; that is the issue for me. I walk 1,000 miles every 5.5 months in single family residential neighborhoods in a nice medium size town in Arizona. That is the average time/distance that I have an unpredictable, uncontrolled four legged dangerous threat targeting me at high velocity invading my very small/short personal defense space/time. Yes, it is very very scary.

Concealed carry: I need a certain amount of time to get my hand on my self defense firearm. That amount of time directly translates to critical time/distance that the high velocity threat can completely close in on me before I can successfully level my defense at it.

Open carry: Smaller amounts of precious tenths of a second are needed to get ready to discharge immediately. I know that an ambush threat at much faster speed than I can evade presents a not very favorable chance of successfully defending against, even with a hand held firearm. Every tenth of a second counts when personal defense space is invaded at high velocity.

Unsupportive social pressure levels: Extremely elevated.

How much should I care about what family, friends and local organizations think of me if I decide to open carry?

Open carry at first is like your teenage years and dating. It can be thrilling, scary, and very awkward since your all new to it. After open carrying for years it will become so normal that if you are not carrying your gun you feel like your pants are missing while in public. It's so boring you will wonder why you didn't do it years ago. Social pressures? You are in Arizona, not unlike Idaho, which is very open carry friendly and accepted. If it's family, tell them it was time for you to come out of the closet, so to speak and they need to deal with their own short comings.

Visual deterrence is better than going concealed when it comes to people. You can look like a nice plump juicy defenseless rabbit (concealed) or you can look like a porcupine that tells predators you'll regret targeting me (open carry).
 

color of law

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Oct 7, 2007
Messages
4,601
Location
Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
No requirement to have a license to open or conceal carry in AZ. If you are not afraid of Solus or me, two old grumpy guys with a gun strapped to their hip, then you have nothing to worry about.
 

solus

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2013
Messages
7,730
Location
here nc
No requirement to have a license to open or conceal carry in AZ. If you are not afraid of Solus or me, two old grumpy guys with a gun strapped to their hip, then you have nothing to worry about.
you haven't seen grumpy you olde f@rt...(opps outside voice, sorry most high moderator!)

carry on
 
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Firearms Iinstuctor

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2011
Messages
3,125
Location
northern wis
Open carry is an option I bike, run and walk many miles also.

I have found spray to work on most dogs I haven't been bit but I sprayed some and back more then one down.

Practice is the key with deployment of any personnel defensive weapon. Plus situational awareness is also a huge part of defending one self.

I also found a stout walking stick/staff to be a great deterrent to domesticated canines plus it helps one self keep ones balance.

Even two legged varmints tend to give some one with a big stick a wider berth.

The great thing about a stick/staff is you have it in your hands all the time and can place it in between you and the attacking critter very quickly.

Dogs seem to under stand sticks and clubs it can buy you time to deploy other means.

If you shoot a dog all the legal ramifications that come with a self defense shooting apply.

Spray a dog or give it a love tap with your walking stick most of the time you just continue of your walk.

Here is a prime example on how dogs under stand sticks. He would have been a lot more effective if he knew on to use the stick.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upyyMwmQZkA
 
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Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,347
Location
Valhalla
Open carry is an option I bike, run and walk many miles also.

I have found spray to work on most dogs I haven't been bit but I sprayed some and back more then one down.

Practice is the key with deployment of any personnel defensive weapon. Plus situational awareness is also a huge part of defending one self.

I also found a stout walking stick/staff to be a great deterrent to domesticated canines plus it helps one self keep ones balance.

Even two legged varmints tend to give some one with a big stick a wider berth.

The great thing about a stick/staff is you have it in your hands all the time and can place it in between you and the attacking critter very quickly.

Dogs seem to under stand sticks and clubs it can buy you time to deploy other means.

If you shoot a dog all the legal ramifications that come with a self defense shooting apply.

Spray a dog or give it a love tap with your walking stick most of the time you just continue of your walk.

Here is a prime example on how dogs under stand sticks. He would have been a lot more effective if he knew on to use the stick.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upyyMwmQZkA
Kali works well.
https://tinyurl.com/y8y7xtfr
 

HP995

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 5, 2012
Messages
729
Location
MO, USA
You guys are so naive. Try that stick stuff on Ipdog and you'll never know what hit you! ;)

But seriously, I agree with the stick. It would give the dog something other than you to bite, give you some room and some extra time. Dogs don't care about OC versus CC, so take your pick.
 

color of law

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Oct 7, 2007
Messages
4,601
Location
Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
You guys are so naive. Try that stick stuff on Ipdog and you'll never know what hit you! ;)

But seriously, I agree with the stick. It would give the dog something other than you to bite, give you some room and some extra time. Dogs don't care about OC versus CC, so take your pick.
My dog open carries. He refuses to wear pants or shirt as a cover garment.
 

Wstar425

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 1, 2014
Messages
560
Location
Tomahawk and Abbotsford, Wi.
I thought I walked a lot, but I calculate you’re at 15 miles a day, in Arizona heat that’s impressive!

A couple points to address. The open carry, my wife is not thrilled with my OC and I get jabbed barbs every so often which I basically ignore. I’m an adult, I’ll do what I want. I couldn’t care less what other people think, but I’ve had 100’s if not thousands of great conversations with people about firearms, and 6 negative ones. That would not have happened CC. I do think you need to be able to be a positive advocate for OC if you’re going to do it, and have your points down, being able to discuss your reasons with out getting angry. Alternatively, you could just not talk about it I suppose. I have just walked away from people. I’ve found once people know and understand my position, the second meeting is uneventful. Of course, there’s potentially lots of people to meet the first time! Seriously, most people don’t even notice, and those that do don’t care. I think it is one of those things you have to experience for yourself instead of taking the word of others for it.

On the dogs, I also walk with an unfriendly to other dogs dog. So, I have to be prepared for what happens when dogs come into the street. My dog is a German Shepherd and can probably hold her own with most dogs. I have a 10 inch leash, if the biting starts I’m letting go. If I’m on a leash and another dog comes into the street or sidewalk, that is their fault not mine. In Wisconsin you better not shoot a dog unless it is actually biting you! I don’t believe you can shoot a dog for fighting your dog even. At least not without getting in a lot of trouble. So, there have been a few times we’ve been rushed, so far they’ve all backed off once my dog starts barking at about 6 feet. If you look at events where people try to shoot attacking dogs it often doesn’t go well, with sometimes the dog being missed entirely and people being shot by accident. I’ve basically determined my gun is NOT being used on a dog, tho if I was being attacked I might change my tune.

I would like to think with some awareness one would see a dog coming where the OC/CC difference should not be a big deal. Obviously, there is alway the exception. But, I would look into your state’s regs on shooting a dog and I’ll bet you find it’s not going to go well for you unless you’ve already been bit repeatedly. Not saying I agree with it. I can’t attests to spray or a stick, but I like the stick idea better.

I open carried around Ann Arbor, Michigan this last weekend. A larger city than I live in. I wondered if all the anti-gun talk would have an effect on people seeing OC. Non conclusive, but few noticed, got a few second looks, no conversations and no fainting horses. Carry a Sig 226 OWB leather, so it should not be hard to see. Everybody had their nose in their phone is part of the “problem”. My personal standard is that I DO NOT look at my phone while OC. I have it as a recorder if needed, but do not surf. About 80 percent of people driving are texting, non scientific survey taken there and back. Most goin 80 mph 15 feet behind another vehicle.
 
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richbuff

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 21, 2018
Messages
23
Location
Arizona
Thanks for the welcome!

Thank you, everyone, for your experienced and knowledgeable replies.

I walk six brisk hilly miles daily, same route for 22 months. Sometimes I walk with my friends small Chihuahuas, mostly I walk alone. In Arizona, reasonable fear of immediate loss of life or limb is legal justification for discharging your defensive sidearm. In Arizona, it is not required to get bitten first before discharging your firearm within city limits. But, if that is the case, you can expect to spend one night in jail, then get ORed in the morning, then have the case dismissed in about ten days, if the system believes that your report of immediate fear of loss or limb is credible. This is how the process played out for me, when the physical evidence and witnesses showed that I discharged my 40 Shield when the Chow Chow and German Shepard were five feet from me, in full tilt aggressive charge mode. I barely had a tenth of a second to spare to avoid a near certain trip to the hospital for an extended stay for a series of reconstructive surgeries, permanent neurological damage, permanent disfigurement and disability. The immediate area of the neighborhood was a notorious hotspot, known to school bus drivers, mail and parcel carriers, pedestrians, cyclists and neighbors.

I need to stop the threat now, period. That is why I am not interested in sticks and spray and air horns and blanks and knives and boomerangs etc.

I need to be able to get my front sight on the threat now. That is why I am thinking seriously about open carry, instead of wasting a critical half a second fumbling with getting past my clothing to get to my defensive firearm. The reason why spray is unreliable is that it requires that the threat uses its frontal cortex to decide if the physical irritation is worth the reward of attaining the target. I don't have time to go that route, along with the uncertain outcome. I need to simply stop the threat now.

Wstar425: Thank you for valuable additional insight. I have a few hours of training and my CCW wallet card. I am very well known by a certain local organization, even though my criminal record contains nothing, not even my one dismissed self defense case is contained therein.

I am going to re read all replies, take the time to study them and also study other resources, and at least try and see what I think and feel. I manage a local neighborhood meeting hall, so I can't help but be exposed to feedback from the masses that do not open carry.
 

Wstar425

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 1, 2014
Messages
560
Location
Tomahawk and Abbotsford, Wi.
Glad you have researched your local dog shooting regs! Sounds like you have some experience...

Could you explain a bit what a “local neighborhood meeting hall” is exactly, I am not sure what that is.

While I have not open carried in Arizona, I was always under the impression it was accepted there as much or more than anywhere. I did get asked/told to leave the Albuquerque, NM TSA truckstop restaurant due to OC, one of my 6 negatives.
 
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Wstar425

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 1, 2014
Messages
560
Location
Tomahawk and Abbotsford, Wi.
Here’s what I have found out about people’s reaction to my open carry, and how I respond. I get a couple of questions or responses, it seems repeatedly. I will stand and talk to someone for a long time if we are having a civil discussion, even if they disagree. I’ll answer their questions as long as they answer mine. One for one. Generally, I’m here because I have business to conduct, my first choice is to do my thing and move on to the next thing. I don’t stand on the corner with a sign or get in people’s business. I’m NEVER the first one to mention anything about firearms.

I don’t like to repeat the same old tired cliches’. As you open carry, and talk about it, you will get more comfortable explaining your position, as well as fine tune your answers. I insist that I am the most stable person in the conversation. If someone is yelling at me, who is really the irrational one here?

The big three, for me:

Why do you carry a gun/firearm?
I believe I am responsible for my own safety.
Follow up statement:
That’s what we have the Police for.
Me: Where are they? (My question, no further answers until they answer this one)

Do you really NEED to carry a gun/firearm?
I CERTAINLY hope not!

I don’t like you carrying a gun/firearm!
I’m sorry to hear that.

I keep my answers short and try to answer the question directly. Sort of make them work for information. Normally, they trip themselves up, or see the light. I’m here at this place (bank, store, etc) because I’m conducting business, not protesting or running an information booth. My FIRST choice is to conduct my business and move on. If people notice my firearm they hopefully realize that nothing happened when a guy with a gun crossed my path.

I have nothing against protesting for gun rights. It’s not much needed in Wisconsin right now. If I was protesting I would probably respond differently and have somewhat different answers. When I first started OC I did have some conversations where I wished I would have said something differently. Learn and move on. If one wishes to not answer any questions from the public at all, I have no issues with that. I have walked away from two people that have been unable to have a civil conversation, had 911 called on me once, and been asked to leave EXACTLY one place. For the most part, I see bad things happening while OC being a thing that people who don’t OC think is going to happen. It doesn’t.

I will admit I am not a strict die hard open carrier. I will not carry my firearm on the outside of my winter coat, unless maybe I was in grizzly country. On the other hand, I have no issue taking my coat off inside a public space. I open carry because it is easier than concealing, I can carry a larger firearm more comfortably, which I shoot better, and it holds more rounds. It’s really all about making me more comfortable, not you. Oh well. I see things every day that people do that I don’t like, or offends me. I look the other way or move on. If it’s not illegal, so be it. If it is, it’s probably not my job to deal with it. The ONE thing you absolutely can’t do as an open carrier is be seen as the antagonizer.
 
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