Man run down in intentional hit and run by muggers and dies

[deepdiver]

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Several important issues in this story and a lot to discuss:

Situational awareness

Bad guys using a vehicle as a lethal weapon

Shooting at a vehicle trying to run you down - how do you prove their intent if you do? And how do you determine their intent before you do?


Garfield man dies from head injuries in hit-and-run robbery
by Tom Shortell/The Jersey Journal
Wednesday December 17, 2008, 7:27 AM

An 87-year-old Garfield man who was struck by a car in an intentional hit-and-run mugging died Tuesday after being taken off life support, family members and officials said, according to a report in The Jersey Journal.
A World War II veteran who worked for a Kearny trucking industry his entire life, William D. Savino just wanted to stay busy, so he picked up a part-time job at the O.J. Truck Lube and Service off Lincoln Highway in Kearny, said his son, Craig Savino.

Photo courtesy of the familyWilliam D. Savino, pictured with his granddaughter Kimberly, was struck by a car driven by men who robbed him and left him to die. After completing a bank run for the company Monday morning, William Savino had just gotten out of his car when two men in a stolen black 1996 Honda Civic intentionally backed into him, knocking him to the ground, said Hudson County Prosecutor Edward DeFazio.
One of the men rifled through Savino's pockets, grabbed several thousands of dollars Savino had withdrawn from the Valley National Bank on Central Avenue, jumped back into the Honda and sped away, DeFazio said.
When Savino fell, his head slammed into the ground, causing bleeding in his brain, Craig Savino said.
Savino was rushed to University Hospital in Newark where he slipped into a coma. The family took him off life support at 2:45 p.m. Tuesday after the victim became brain dead, Craig Savino said. William Savino passed away within a half hour.

 

[Doug Huffman]

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Good questions.

I am one of the last race-track corner workers with 'toes in the road' experience'. In the old days twenty years ago and in the age of cornfield racetracks, corner workers stood on the edge of the track to put our flags in the drivers' faces. (How senior was I? luser=6722 might ask. I rode Paul Newman's hood on his victory-lap when he won his first amateur championship. I was Corner Captain at RA turn 12).

It is an article of faith and well practiced that a car cannot hit an aware and active 'victim'.

More than once at Charlotte Motor Speedway I had cars that I had to dodge. As a senior worker and then Chief of Specialty I taught that one kept your eyes on the car, stand your ground and then step to the inside of the car's turning.

An argument for awareness. YMMV

 

[nitrovic]

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Doug Huffman wrote:

Good questions.

I am one of the last race-track corner workers with 'toes in the road' experience'.  In the old days twenty years ago and in the age of cornfield racetracks, corner workers stood on the edge of the track to put our flags in the drivers' faces.  (How senior was I? luser=6722 might ask.  I rode Paul Newman's hood on his victory-lap when he won his first amateur championship.  I was Corner Captain at RA turn 12).

It is an article of faith and well practiced that a car cannot hit an aware and active 'victim'. 

More than once at Charlotte Motor Speedway I had cars that I had to dodge.  As a senior worker and then Chief of Specialty I taught that one kept your eyes on the car, stand your ground and then step to the inside of the car's turning.

An argument for awareness.  YMMV

Couldn't be more wrong. A car can indeed hit an active and aware victim. Of course be aware, but never stand your ground with a car intentionally running you down. Very dangerous advice from somebody who obviously has never had it happened to them.


This is especially dangerous (and tactically wrong) advise to the elderly. This guy was 87 years old. More than likely not as quick as a youngster.

To the OP, a lot times a gun simply won't beat a car. It's best to get out of the way as quickly as possibly. Some rounds won't even break through glass much less go where you aim. I've tried this in training and it was almost impossible to hit the moving target behind glass. Unless you have a higher power rifle, it's really tough.

As far as the legal aspect, I can't really comment on that. I have to leave that one for one of the others.

 

[compmanio365]

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I believe it wasBox O Truth that found bullets will deflect upwhen shot through a windshield.Regularside window glasswill gostraight through. Best to shoot low when shooting through the windshield, but again, I'd rather just get out of the way.....even if you do shoot someone through the car, they still have momentum, and it doesn't mean they're dead right away.

 

[deepdiver]

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Laff, I wasn't suggesting not getting out of the way intially. I was thinking more of a situation with my question of someone coming at you, you get out of the way and they come at you again. There could be places where you cannot get to someplace the car cannot go and you certainly aren't going to outrun a car.

 

[Enoch Root]

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I've pointed out the hypocrisy of the gun-ban fanatics with this argument before.

Since vehicles kill many more people each year than firearms in our nation, (roll out the statistics)where are their bleeding-heart cries for a ban on all automobiles? Even licsensing, registration and training courses have yet to halt the deaths by automobile in our nation.

Hell, the above vehicle was stolen, to boot.

Sorta shoots their "we abhor violence and only want to see senseless deaths stopped" argument full of holes.

Liberal illogic never ceases to make me want to laugh.

 

[nitrovic]

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Enoch Root wrote:

I've pointed out the hypocrisy of the gun-ban fanatics with this argument before.

Since vehicles kill many more people each year than firearms in our nation, (roll out the statistics) where are their bleeding-heart cries for a ban on all automobiles? Even licsensing, registration and training courses have yet to halt the deaths by automobile in our nation.

Hell, the above vehicle was stolen, to boot.

Sorta shoots their "we abhor violence and only want to see senseless deaths stopped" argument full of holes. 

Liberal illogic never ceases to make me want to laugh.

Good points. Vehicles also kill more police officers on a year to year basis than guns.

 

[Doug Huffman]

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The fault of drivers or cops unaware?

 

[nitrovic]

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Doug Huffman wrote:

The fault of drivers or cops unaware?

The ones I've seen no doubt the fault of the driver. It's usually against the law to swerve off of a road and strike a police officer while he's in the process of speaking with a citizen (for that matter, it's illegal to swerve off of the road and hit anybody- we are all equal, wits guns blah blah blah). The officer's don't just walk out in a through lane of traffic "unaware". No real different than the deaths of construction workers. With all the new electronic items in cars today to take the attention of the driver off of the road, it will happen even more.

 

[AWDstylez]

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Doug Huffman wrote:

It is an article of faith and well practiced that a car cannot hit an aware and active 'victim'.

I'll agree with nitrovic and call complete and utter wrongness (yes, I made that up) on your entire post. I happen to shag cones at auto-x quite often, which is far more dangerous than working a corner at an actualtrack, due to amatuer drivers, wide-open space, and "track" that is nothing more than cones,andis alsoas irrelevant to the topic your job past job. :quirky

First off, there's a huge difference between standing your ground because you have confidence in a skilled racer that is trying to NOT hit you, and some thugs that are TRYING to run you over. You have no idea what the layout of the area was, what the order of events was, or anything else for that matter. The guy was 87 years old so I'm sure he wasn't quick on his feet by any standard, he was probably hard of hearing, and old people, in general, aren't very good with situational awareness due to things entirely out of their control, and therefore not their fault. If someone in a vehicle was determined to hit you, all the awareness in the world isn't going to help. You need to get behind unmovable cover or some other place a vehicle can't go. Shooting at them or standing your ground is just going to get you killed.

As everyone else said, if a car was coming at you then get as far out of the way as you can, as quickly as you can.

 

[diesel556]

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AWDstylez wrote:

Doug Huffman wrote:

It is an article of faith and well practiced that a car cannot hit an aware and active 'victim'.

I'll agree with nitrovic and call complete and utter wrongness (yes, I made that up) on your entire post. I happen to shag cones at auto-x quite often, which is far more dangerous than working a corner at an actualtrack, due to amatuer drivers, wide-open space, and "track" that is nothing more than cones,andis alsoas irrelevant to the topic your job past job. :quirky

First off, there's a huge difference between standing your ground because you have confidence in a skilled racer that is trying to NOT hit you, and some thugs that are TRYING to run you over. You have no idea what the layout of the area was, what the order of events was, or anything else for that matter. The guy was 87 years old so I'm sure he wasn't quick on his feet by any standard, he was probably hard of hearing, and old people, in general, aren't very good with situational awareness due to things entirely out of their control, and therefore not their fault. If someone in a vehicle was determined to hit you, all the awareness in the world isn't going to help. You need to get behind unmovable cover or some other place a vehicle can't go. Shooting at them or standing your ground is just going to get you killed.

As everyone else said, if a car was coming at you then get as far out of the way as you can, as quickly as you can.

I think everyone is ignoring the fact that this attack sounds like a planned ambush. I would assume that ones ability to "get out of the way" after walking into any sort of trap would be minimal at best.

 

[AWDstylez]

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diesel556 wrote:

I think everyone is ignoring the fact that this attack sounds like a planned ambush. I would assume that ones ability to "get out of the way" after walking into any sort of trap would be minimal at best.

Another excellent point.

 

[Carnivore]

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These Thugs most likely ambushed the old fella as he was within walking distance of a bank exercizing a transaction, and they just laid in wait, most likely knowing he was headed in a specific direction, and litterally stole a contributor to our country,valuable life from a family and stole a very cherished granddad from a little girl..

I say an immediate execution is in order if andwhenthe perps. are caught and tried and found guilty..