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Michael Brown unarmed shooting in Ferguson, MO

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marshaul

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No of wouldn't alone provide justification for shooting.

But it certainly adds credence to the officers claims the guy fought him for his gun.

IF that is the guy and he just robbed a store violently do you think he'd just say "ok coppa ya got me"?

You're right. Surely he'd lesson his criminal liability by adding the crime of killing a cop to his rap sheet. :rolleyes:

So, is there any actual evidence that this man posed a threat of lethal force at the time of the shooting, or are y'all going to continue to rely on hand-waving and misdirection?

No. You know what would add credence to the officer's claim? A video recording of the entire stop. Frankly, I'm inclined to assume guilt on the part of any officer who fails to acquire or produce such, and I'm inclined to suspect I'm wholly correct in doing so.
 

Primus

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You're right. Surely he'd lesson his criminal liability by adding the crime of killing a cop to his rap sheet. :rolleyes:

So, is there any actual evidence that this man posed a threat of lethal force at the time of the shooting, or are y'all going to continue to rely on hand-waving and misdirection?

No. You know what would add credence to the officer's claim? A video recording of the entire stop. Frankly, I'm inclined to assume guilt on the part of any officer who fails to acquire or produce such, and I'm inclined to suspect I'm wholly correct in doing so.

No your right.... Guys NEVER fight when they are getting arrested for other crimes... They NEVER kill cops while resisting arrest for different crimes..... I mean usually right after they pick a store owner up off the floor by the throat and rob items, if they are caught they shake the officers hand and say "well done ya got me"..... Now back to reality hopefully...

Cmon brother... Your smarter then to believe that. Guys ARE VIOLENT and for some stupid reason think fighting or killing the police will help them get away. Its called propensity for violence...

I will try to find a cite but I did hear it reported that the officer had facial I injuries from fight with this guy before the shooting.

I like the "he's guilty until proven innocent" thing... Not a double standard at all...


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Primus

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Did a quick forum search and found nothing, thought it should be shared here. Remember though, investigation is pending, so there are no opinions allowed whatsoever regarding the case as per unwritten forum rules. However, to make it relevant to OC, I'll pose this question: If you saw this happen to a friend you were walking with and you were carrying, OC or CC, would you defend yourself and your friend with force?

*disclaimer: I hate the mainstream media. The accounts and subsequent comments by CNN reek of race-baiting in sad attempts to continue to subdivide people into groups. There has been considerable protest and rioting in Ferguson, unfortunately including looting of local businesses.

An eyewitness account:

"Dorian Johnson, 22, told CNN that he and Brown were walking in the middle of the street when a white male officer pulled up and told them, "Get the f*** on the sidewalk." The young men replied that they were "not but a minute away from our destination, and we would shortly be out of the street," Johnson said.

The officer drove forward but stopped and backed up, almost hitting the pair, Johnson said.

"We were so close, almost inches away, that when he tried to open his door aggressively, the door ricocheted both off me and Big Mike's body and closed back on the officer," Johnson said.

Still in his car, the officer then grabbed Brown by his neck, Johnson said. Brown tried to pull away, but the officer kept pulling Brown toward him, he said.

The officer drew his weapon, and "he said, 'I'll shoot you' or 'I'm going to shoot' " and almost instantaneously fired his weapon, hitting Brown, Johnson said.

Johnson and a bloodied Brown took off running, and Johnson hid behind the first car he saw, he said. The officer got out of his car.

"I saw the officer proceeding after my friend Big Mike with his gun drawn, and he fired a second shot and that struck my friend Big Mike," Johnson told CNN's Wolf Blitzer. "And at that time, he turned around with his hands up, beginning to tell the officer that he was unarmed and to tell him to stop shooting. But at that time, the officer firing several more shots into my friend, and he hit the ground and died."

From the police:

"That Brown was unarmed is undisputed -- St. Louis County Police Chief Jon Belmar said every casing found at the scene was from the officer's weapon -- but he said at a Sunday news conference that Brown was not an innocent victim.

"The genesis of this was a physical confrontation," Belmar said, adding that Ferguson police asked his office to investigate the case.

Without revealing what led to the dispute, Belmar said the preliminary investigation showed that the Ferguson officer tried to exit his vehicle, but Brown pushed him back into the car," where he physically assaulted the police officer" and struggled over the officer's weapon, Belmar said.

A shot was fired inside the police car, and Brown was eventually shot about 35 feet away from the vehicle, Belmar said.

It's unclear how many times Brown was shot. Johnson said it was more than three, and Brown's mother said she was told he was shot eight times. Some witnesses said they heard as many as 10 shots. Belmar said only that it "was more than just a couple."

The chief didn't explain how Brown got so far away from the car or whether he was surrendering. He said he was declining to disclose certain details because he didn't want to "prejudice" the case."

Cite: http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/11/us/missouri-ferguson-michael-brown-what-we-know/index.html

I guess Dorian Johnson left out the fact his boy just robbed a store by lifting the clerk of the floor by his neck......

Maybe THATS why the officer opened his door aggressively?

Nah... They were just two innocent youths bee bopping down the street and calmly said to officer "we will shortly be at our destination kind sir".......

So much for a credible eye witness. Is he going to go back on CNN and say "whoops"..

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marshaul

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No your right.... Guys NEVER fight when they are getting arrested for other crimes... They NEVER kill cops while resisting arrest for different crimes..... I mean usually right after they pick a store owner up off the floor by the throat and rob items, if they are caught they shake the officers hand and say "well done ya got me"..... Now back to reality hopefully...

Cmon brother... Your smarter then to believe that. Guys ARE VIOLENT and for some stupid reason think fighting or killing the police will help them get away. Its called propensity for violence...

I will try to find a cite but I did hear it reported that the officer had facial I injuries from fight with this guy before the shooting.

So, basically, there's no evidence, and all you've got is hand-waving and misdirection. Got it.

I like the "he's guilty until proven innocent" thing... Not a double standard at all...

It absolutely is a double-standard, and one your assumption of power & authority, and subversion of the process of "justice" (not to mention your collective track-record), have rendered absolutely justified. Nobody is forcing you to work as police.
 

marshaul

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I guess Dorian Johnson left out the fact his boy just robbed a store by lifting the clerk of the floor by his neck......

Maybe THATS why the officer opened his door aggressively?

So your position is that the officer was justified because he started the confrontation by attempting to mete out punishment absent due process?

Keep it up.
 

Primus

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So your position is that the officer was justified because he started the confrontation by attempting to mete out punishment absent due process?

Keep it up.

Mete out what punishment? 30 whacks with a door? Lol....

Keep clinging...

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Primus

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So, basically, there's no evidence, and all you've got is hand-waving and misdirection. Got it.



It absolutely is a double-standard, and one your assumption of power & authority, and subversion of the process of "justice" (not to mention your collective track-record), have rendered absolutely justified. Nobody is forcing you to work as police.

Your being obtuse if you really think that this kid who MAY have just violently robbed a store has NO bearing on the encounter.

Not sure why you make it personal about my "collective track record". I didn't shoot the kid. Do you know that officer personally? Didnt think so.

So I guess I should judge races, genders, faiths, occupations, on any person who partakes and their "track record"? Your kidding right?

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OC for ME

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I guess Dorian Johnson left out the fact his boy just robbed a store by lifting the clerk of the floor by his neck......

Maybe THATS why the officer opened his door aggressively?

Nah... They were just two innocent youths bee bopping down the street and calmly said to officer "we will shortly be at our destination kind sir".......

So much for a credible eye witness. Is he going to go back on CNN and say "whoops"..

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Irrelevant.

If you choose to disregard a eye witness account of the shoot and choose to believe the cop out of hand, OK. This is a typical response from cops until the cop is proven wrong regarding his version of the event. If the cop is found to have embellished the truth, or not recall all of the facts, well, no big deal.
 

jhfc

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How likely is it that dash cam footage existed/exists?

Are all or most police cars equipped with it these days?
 

marshaul

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Your being obtuse if you really think that this kid who MAY have just violently robbed a store has NO bearing on the encounter.

Not sure why you make it personal about my "collective track record". I didn't shoot the kid. Do you know that officer personally? Didnt think so.

So I guess I should judge races, genders, faiths, occupations, on any person who partakes and their "track record"? Your kidding right?

"Races, genders, faiths" aren't granted broad authority which they consistently abuse, using their putative "impartiality" coupled with the practice of "testilying" to do so with impunity.

Mete out what punishment? 30 whacks with a door? Lol....

Keep clinging...

I wasn't aware that "opening doors aggressively" on *suspects* was an accepted part of the use of force continuum.
 
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Primus

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Irrelevant.

If you choose to disregard a eye witness account of the shoot and choose to believe the cop out of hand, OK. This is a typical response from cops until the cop is proven wrong regarding his version of the event. If the cop is found to have embellished the truth, or not recall all of the facts, well, no big deal.

I wouldn't disregard then eyewitness completely but it certainly diminishes his credibility. And the kid left out a HUGE piece.. That Hus boy just robbed a place probably just a few minutes prior. I wonder if this kid was also involved? I have no facts to bolster that but its not a huge leap to make.. I'll wait till more flushes out..

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marshaul

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I wouldn't disregard then eyewitness completely but it certainly diminishes his credibility. And the kid left out a HUGE piece.. That Hus boy just robbed a place probably just a few minutes prior. I wonder if this kid was also involved? I have no facts to bolster that but its not a huge leap to make.. I'll wait till more flushes out..

Indeed. Too bad the cop has zero credibility, and it becomes negative with the absence of video footage, which strongly implies guilt on the part of the officer.

So, yeah, the eyewitness in question has greater net credibility than the officer. Based on what's been presented so far, I'd say we have an act of first-degree murder, with a witness to boot.

If y'all don't like that, maybe you should start recording your heroic deeds so we can one day assign you an iota of credibility.
 
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Primus

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Indeed. Too bad the cop has zero credibility, and it becomes negative with the absence of video footage, which strongly implies guilt on the part of the officer.

So, yeah, the eyewitness in question has greater net credibility than the officer. Based on what's been presented so far, I'd say we have an act of first-degree murder, with a witness to boot.

If y'all don't like that, maybe you should start recording your heroic deeds so we can one day assign you an iota of credibility.

Lol.... Ok brother your right... Murder all day... He was innocent troubled youth.. Just turning his life around... That was his LAST robbery ever....in fact he stole this cigars to give to the homeless on his way to the soup kitchen ....

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marshaul

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Lol.... Ok brother your right... Murder all day... He was innocent troubled youth.. Just turning his life around... That was his LAST robbery ever....in fact he stole this cigars to give to the homeless on his way to the soup kitchen ....

Hand-waving and misdirection.

Have you discovered any evidence that the shooting was in response to a reasonably-perceived threat of lethal force?

I thought not.
 
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OC for ME

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I guess Dorian Johnson left out the fact his boy just robbed a store by lifting the clerk of the floor by his neck......

Maybe THATS why the officer opened his door aggressively?

Nah... They were just two innocent youths bee bopping down the street and calmly said to officer "we will shortly be at our destination kind sir".......

So much for a credible eye witness. Is he going to go back on CNN and say "whoops"..

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There is no indication that Dorian Johnson was involved with the robbery, or even near the store. But that really don't matter to you cuz he was with Brown when the cop rolled up, so it is easy leap for you (cops) to make.

I wouldn't disregard then eyewitness completely but it certainly diminishes his credibility. And the kid left out a HUGE piece.. That Hus boy just robbed a place probably just a few minutes prior. I wonder if this kid was also involved? I have no facts to bolster that but its not a huge leap to make.. I'll wait till more flushes out..

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You disregard the eyewitness out of hand. I addressed the "HUGE piece" statement already. It is not a huge leap only because cops tend to believe cops before anyone else. Cops never lie until they are found to have lied.

Cops will stop folks who match the description of, I don't like it, I don't agree with it, but it is what it is.

Heck, cops in Aurora, during their Constitution Suspension Event were looking for a male bank robber and were locked, loaded, and pointing at females. The standard seems to be "humanoid is close enough," depending on the purported severity of the reported offense. Don't even get me started on the Boston Constitution Suspension Event.
 

Primus

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Hand-waving and misdirection.

Have you discovered any evidence that the shooting was in response to a reasonably-perceived threat of lethal force?

I thought not.

Yea the dude is 6'4" 290 lbs and just violently robbed a store. Then he resisted arrest for said violent crime and attacked the officer apparently injuring his face. Those are facts.... Then add in testimony that the guy went for his gun.

Anything else?

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OC for ME

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Yea the dude is 6'4" 290 lbs and just violently robbed a store. Then he resisted arrest for said violent crime and attacked the officer apparently injuring his face. Those are facts.... Then add in testimony that the guy went for his gun.

Anything else?

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The cop alleges that Brown went for his gun. The eyewitness tells a different version of that event.
 

Kopis

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How likely is it that dash cam footage existed/exists?

Are all or most police cars equipped with it these days?


Ferguson police cars are not equipped with cameras at all according to one of the articles i read.... It does seem silly that every LEO is not wearing a body camera AND audio device at all times. Even audio which takes little to no memory to record for 8 hours would have been helpful in this situation.


It's so weird and poor public perception to not bring out these facts within 24 hours:

1. Brown was suspected shoplifting suspect, incident became violent
2. officer IDed Brown from surveillance video
3. officer sustained injuries while attempting to arrest Brown and show a picture of those injuries.
 
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Primus

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The cop alleges that Brown went for his gun. The eyewitness tells a different version of that event.

Lol.... Just reported on fox that the eyewitness was actually present for that robbery...

Gee I didn't see that coming...

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OC for ME

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Lol.... Just reported on fox that the eyewitness was actually present for that robbery...

Gee I didn't see that coming...

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Neither did I since I am not monitoring the news while interacting with you. It is your contentions and assumptions that keep me engaged. The fact that your contentions/assumptions are being proven correct does not change the fact that you are believing the cop and his version of the event out of hand, you got lucky. Also, the now co-thief and his version of the shoot are just as credible as the cop's version of the shoot until all of the facts are presented in a courtroom, if it gets to a courtroom.

Sound whacky, I know, placing a alleged thief at the same credibility level as a cop. Although, he being at the store does not necessarily mean he participated in the robbery, he may be nothing more than a witness who will not snitch on a 6'4" 290 lb dude that lives in his neighborhood. No snitching is a big part of that little slice of STL.
 
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