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MICHIGAN OPEN CARRY INC v CLIO AREA SCHOOL DISTRICT and MGO v ANN ARBOR SCHOOLS

mikestilly

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2009
Messages
1,870
Location
Macomb County, Michigan, USA
Dean Greenblatt did an amazing job explaining the arguments. That judge who was questioning him was hell bent on ruling from the bench by making a bunch of what if statements without respect to what the state law is. The chief justice took Clio to the woodshed but the MISC appears to be packed by activist judges. I'm deeply concerned what far reaching firearm rights implicating the ruling has on Michigan Gun Owners. I'm not sure if any discussions occur here any more but I'd like to open a discussion on the subject.

I had some questions about the downstream impacts. This ruling appeared to have altered what we understood about preemption and what was considered a local unit of government. What implications does this have for other psudo-local units of government such as Universities, etc? Since preemption does not apply according to the ruling does this mean that we can be prosecuted for open carrying at schools? Or does this ruling mean that we now just will be abused by the trespass statute to allow them to enforce their own psudo school legislation on firearms? What impact does this ruling have on the CATL decision and further cases involving gun rights?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=ln1bsBx2F8A

http://courts.mi.gov/Courts/MichiganSupremeCourt/oral-arguments/2017-2018/Pages/155204.aspx
 

Michigander

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
4,836
Location
Mulligan's Valley
Coming from a legal system that is so messed up it sees rocket launcher carry as potentially lawful, yet a piece of metal sharpened on two sides as a conclusive felony, this can be no surprise.

Not living there anymore nor having any desire to conduct activism there anymore I have no real concern for this matter, though I wish you guys and gals well who do, because this seems to be quite a setback.
 

OC4me

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2009
Messages
758
Location
Northwest Kent County, Michigan
A setback, to be sure.

A possible silver lining might finally be concealed carry in schools (i.e. elimination of pistol-free zones) down the road once the right governor is in.

Our legislature has already passed pro-gun legislation to that effect and now that open carry is (for better or worse) off the table, there should be no perceived legislative need to statutorily prohibit open carry in schools (as part of a future bill), thus technically preserving its lawfulness on paper (with a CPL, subject to being asked to leave the premises), instead of an out-right ban, which the earlier concealed carry legislation called for. Once concealed carry in school proves to be a non-issue and gains acceptance by the populace, trespassing for open carry hopefully may become more of a non-issue. We will see in the very long term.

Another legal strategy to end the appalling criminal empowerment areas (i.e. gun-free school zones) would be a frontal assault on the very Constitutionality of depriving public service employees their self-defense rights in the first place. Article I, Section 6 of our state constitution clearly guarantees every person the right to bear arms in self defense. Teachers, like all public service employees, are persons who have the right to bear arms in self-defense just like every other law-abiding resident of this state. Yet absolutely nobody seems to be raising the obvious point that these fine citizens are being denied the exercise of this important constitutional right. The gun rights movement in Michigan needs to recognize and embrace teachers. Doing so may initially seem controversial, but anti-gun advocates would be forced to argue that teachers, those outstanding pillars of our society, can't be TRUSTED and thus can be denied rights similar to felons. Make that point and the vast majority of teachers will realize that they are being looked down upon and insulted! As a whole, we can turn public service employees, especially teachers, into civil rights allies instead of foes, if we become THEIR champions!
 
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mikestilly

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2009
Messages
1,870
Location
Macomb County, Michigan, USA
MOC's false and misleading email

I disagree with the email sent out by MOC stating "No, the Michigan Supreme Court Did NOT Rule That Schools Can Ban Guns." It would be great if Dean could come by and explain the impacts of the rulings. I've read both the MSC and CAM rulings multiple times. CAM and MSC go into detail specifically about preemption. I come away with the conclusion that the Court found that, in both matters, public school districts are not “local units of government,” hence the 2012 CADL ruling that allowed for the open carry of firearms in libraries did not apply. Per the Court, “school districts are not formed, organized or operated by cities, villages, townships or counties, but exist independently of those bodies” and therefore do not qualify as “local units of government,” per (MCL 123.1102).

It seems the MASB whom I'd never go to for any legal advice agrees. So MOC may think that somehow it doesnt apply but when reading this (the ruling) which was affirmed by the MSC it most certainly does:
https://caselaw.findlaw.com/mi-court-of-appeals/1757756.html


http://www.masb.org/coa-holds-that-districts-may-ban-open-carry.aspx#sthash.2Nh4qQe7.dpbs
 

OC4me

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2009
Messages
758
Location
Northwest Kent County, Michigan
I disagree with the email sent out by MOC stating "No, the Michigan Supreme Court Did NOT Rule That Schools Can Ban Guns." It would be great if Dean could come by and explain the impacts of the rulings. I've read both the MSC and CAM rulings multiple times. CAM and MSC go into detail specifically about preemption. I come away with the conclusion that the Court found that, in both matters, public school districts are not “local units of government,” hence the 2012 CADL ruling that allowed for the open carry of firearms in libraries did not apply. Per the Court, “school districts are not formed, organized or operated by cities, villages, townships or counties, but exist independently of those bodies” and therefore do not qualify as “local units of government,” per (MCL 123.1102).

It seems the MASB whom I'd never go to for any legal advice agrees. So MOC may think that somehow it doesnt apply but when reading this (the ruling) which was affirmed by the MSC it most certainly does:
https://caselaw.findlaw.com/mi-court-of-appeals/1757756.html


http://www.masb.org/coa-holds-that-districts-may-ban-open-carry.aspx#sthash.2Nh4qQe7.dpbs
Interesting since I just finished reading the following article quoting law professor Steve Dulan on exactly why the issue remains unsettled:

http://www.record-eagle.com/news/local_news/open-carry-issue-in-schools-may-not-be-settled/article_31198856-e0e8-5080-b80a-2d36bc491829.html
 
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OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
12,261
Location
White Oak Plantation
It bears repeating that the statute on which plaintiffs rely does not reference schools or school districts in its list of “local units of government,” despite that for many other purposes, the Legislature has explicitly identified school districts as “local units of government.
It appears, in MI, that a school is not a unit of local government...until it is a unit of local government...oooh-kaye.
 

Venator

Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter
Joined
Jan 10, 2007
Messages
6,494
Location
Lansing area, Michigan, USA
I disagree with the email sent out by MOC stating "No, the Michigan Supreme Court Did NOT Rule That Schools Can Ban Guns." It would be great if Dean could come by and explain the impacts of the rulings. I've read both the MSC and CAM rulings multiple times. CAM and MSC go into detail specifically about preemption. I come away with the conclusion that the Court found that, in both matters, public school districts are not “local units of government,” hence the 2012 CADL ruling that allowed for the open carry of firearms in libraries did not apply. Per the Court, “school districts are not formed, organized or operated by cities, villages, townships or counties, but exist independently of those bodies” and therefore do not qualify as “local units of government,” per (MCL 123.1102).

It seems the MASB whom I'd never go to for any legal advice agrees. So MOC may think that somehow it doesnt apply but when reading this (the ruling) which was affirmed by the MSC it most certainly does:
https://caselaw.findlaw.com/mi-court-of-appeals/1757756.html


http://www.masb.org/coa-holds-that-districts-may-ban-open-carry.aspx#sthash.2Nh4qQe7.dpbs
August 2[SUP]nd[/SUP], 2018
Good show, Dean discusses the Michigan Supreme court decision on guns in schools.
Dean Greenblatt, Guns in Schools, Zimmerman, 3D Printing.

Listen: https://www.atoddsshow.com/
Watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_BPcGYC2yA&t=2651s
 

mikestilly

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2009
Messages
1,870
Location
Macomb County, Michigan, USA
Thanks Dean for explaining the outcome. It's still pretty confusing when the court talks about in the ruling and the appeals court that schools are not a local unit of government and agree on it in both decisions how they could then be considered preempted? I just don't understand how that works. How could they be preempted under the statue on preemption if they decision was that they are not a local unit of government?
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,337
Location
Valhalla
Thanks Dean for explaining the outcome. It's still pretty confusing when the court talks about in the ruling and the appeals court that schools are not a local unit of government and agree on it in both decisions how they could then be considered preempted? I just don't understand how that works. How could they be preempted under the statue on preemption if they decision was that they are not a local unit of government?
Because a lie travels around the world while the truth is just putting on its boots.
 

Venator

Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter
Joined
Jan 10, 2007
Messages
6,494
Location
Lansing area, Michigan, USA
So what happened was the court is not truthful in their decision. MOC and MGO both agreed that schools are not preempted by the current statute. They did discuss conflict even though the court claims they didn't. The issue was not that schools are preempted it was that schools can not enforce or make policies contrary to state laws, which is what the court agreed to. Schools can't ban guns that are allowed by state laws, which is Concealed in parking lots AND OC with a CPL on school grounds. The court implies they can trespass you for having an OCed gun on school grounds, which they were doing before the case and now allowed to after, so really nothing changed there. Also schools CAN allow OC with a CPL if they want and some schools do.

So the next step is to bring a case that deals with the conflict issue between the law and schools. It's not over, they are working on a new case.

OR get the legislature to include schools under the preemption law.
 
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