cleveland
Regular Member
You don't believe in using pepper spray, ever?
-
We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
-
If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
-
Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.
No suspects in custody!!!
- Thread starter afterimages
- Start date
- Status
I wouldn't want to risk getting that in my eyes.
Lurchiron
Regular Member
Well...back when I was single and running late for a date; works just like toothpaste, I thought. Kinda weeds out the wallflowers that way!!!
SFCRetired
Regular Member
1. If I, as an older, not-so-healthy man, am faced with a threat, whether it is one person or a mob and they are younger and healthier than I am, I will be in fear of my life. The last part is why I do not carry pepper spray and would not use it. If the sight of my openly carried weapon is not sufficient deterrent, then I am going to do my best to stop the ring leaders or the ones closest to me and mine.
2. Folks, I will admit that I am a cynical, paranoid old man. How do you think I managed to become an old man?
3. This is, I fear, just the beginning. Wait until the results of the 2012 election are known. If the present incumbent in the White House loses, there is a certain segment of the black community who will use that as an excuse to riot, loot, burn, and attack. If the present incumbent should happen to win, there is a certain segment of the white community who will use that as an excuse to riot, loot, burn, and attack.
4. Do not, I beg of you, paint all blacks, hispanics, or whites with the same brush. I have, in both my military and civilian careers, been privileged to serve with, and to lead, people of many different ethnic origins. By and large, they were good people who worked hard at whatever came to hand. Only a very few would be considered a waste of oxygen. Those few, we managed, in both military and civilian arenas, to get rid of.
2. Folks, I will admit that I am a cynical, paranoid old man. How do you think I managed to become an old man?
3. This is, I fear, just the beginning. Wait until the results of the 2012 election are known. If the present incumbent in the White House loses, there is a certain segment of the black community who will use that as an excuse to riot, loot, burn, and attack. If the present incumbent should happen to win, there is a certain segment of the white community who will use that as an excuse to riot, loot, burn, and attack.
4. Do not, I beg of you, paint all blacks, hispanics, or whites with the same brush. I have, in both my military and civilian careers, been privileged to serve with, and to lead, people of many different ethnic origins. By and large, they were good people who worked hard at whatever came to hand. Only a very few would be considered a waste of oxygen. Those few, we managed, in both military and civilian arenas, to get rid of.
AaronS
Regular Member
Please lets not refer to these criminals as "children" and lets not forget that they severely beat a number of people!
Yes, a MOB beating on one person could easily kill or cause great bodily harm and that would warrant lethal force!
reasonably believe that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm!!
HandyHamlet
Regular Member
Yep, and didn't I read they took out two cops too. One was hit in the head from behind?
hermannr
Regular Member
Mob violence comes in two flavors. The first is disorganized and just starting up, the second has become organized already and is much harder to stop.
Back in the 60's when there were quite a few riots going on, I was in school in the US Army ay Ft Monmouth, NJ. All students and military instructors were rquired to go through riot control training...and what did I learn from that training...Identify and take out the leaders. BTW: They are not necessarily the guys up front. They are the ones that start the charge, then, when close, drop back and let the stampede effect take the brunt.
So, 50 young guys in a mob are attacking me, what would I do? Draw down on the one with the biggest mouth. (If you remember the "Kent State" insident, the national guard boys did shoot a few of the rioters (killed 4)...but 13 seconds and a large riot ended/) I am not aying pull trigger yet, I am saying, show them you have a means of defending yourself, and that you have every intention of using those means...Way better than pepper spray. You can pull down on a mob at 25 years, and stop them cold.
Back in the 60's when there were quite a few riots going on, I was in school in the US Army ay Ft Monmouth, NJ. All students and military instructors were rquired to go through riot control training...and what did I learn from that training...Identify and take out the leaders. BTW: They are not necessarily the guys up front. They are the ones that start the charge, then, when close, drop back and let the stampede effect take the brunt.
So, 50 young guys in a mob are attacking me, what would I do? Draw down on the one with the biggest mouth. (If you remember the "Kent State" insident, the national guard boys did shoot a few of the rioters (killed 4)...but 13 seconds and a large riot ended/) I am not aying pull trigger yet, I am saying, show them you have a means of defending yourself, and that you have every intention of using those means...Way better than pepper spray. You can pull down on a mob at 25 years, and stop them cold.
cleveland
Regular Member
Can a mob be a lethal force? Absolutely! I posted this on my facebook page before I entered into this discussion.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2002-10-01-mob_x.htm
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Clevelands-Holsters/119323708154588
So yes, I understand that they can and do kill. The point that I am trying to make here (a bit of devils advocate) is that different people will look at the same scenario and come to different conclusions as to the level of danger. They can be complete opposite conclusions and both be correct given the individuals perception. Take the fact that the cops didn't shoot anyone (didn't see the threat as lethal) but most of us would have (do see the threat as lethal). They beat people up, but did not kill anyone. If lethal force was warranted, why didn't the cops shoot anyone? Were they unprepared? Were they afraid to shoot children? Did they genuinely not see they threat as lethal?
As the pepper spray goes, if there is time I will use it. If there is not time, then I will not use it. Without being there, I can not say for sure what I would have done. I can speculate, but that's all it really is, speculation. I grew up at 1529 Geneva St in Racine, any of you that live in Racine know what kind of area this is. My situational awareness skills are rather honed because of this and I am full confident in my ability to accurately gauge any situation I find myself in.
Why? They ARE children! Being violent criminals does not change that. When the person defending his life is fighting for his life a second time in court, you better believe they will be showing a pic of this child with a big smile wearing his Sunday best. I think the fact that they are children makes this even more troublesome.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2002-10-01-mob_x.htm
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Clevelands-Holsters/119323708154588
So yes, I understand that they can and do kill. The point that I am trying to make here (a bit of devils advocate) is that different people will look at the same scenario and come to different conclusions as to the level of danger. They can be complete opposite conclusions and both be correct given the individuals perception. Take the fact that the cops didn't shoot anyone (didn't see the threat as lethal) but most of us would have (do see the threat as lethal). They beat people up, but did not kill anyone. If lethal force was warranted, why didn't the cops shoot anyone? Were they unprepared? Were they afraid to shoot children? Did they genuinely not see they threat as lethal?
As the pepper spray goes, if there is time I will use it. If there is not time, then I will not use it. Without being there, I can not say for sure what I would have done. I can speculate, but that's all it really is, speculation. I grew up at 1529 Geneva St in Racine, any of you that live in Racine know what kind of area this is. My situational awareness skills are rather honed because of this and I am full confident in my ability to accurately gauge any situation I find myself in.
Why? They ARE children! Being violent criminals does not change that. When the person defending his life is fighting for his life a second time in court, you better believe they will be showing a pic of this child with a big smile wearing his Sunday best. I think the fact that they are children makes this even more troublesome.
rcawdor57
Campaign Veteran
A Good Video System And Recording Would Suffice In Court To Show The Truth...
A good video recording would prove what really happened and all the "Smiley" photos of the kid(s) at the zoo wouldn't help the criminal(s) in a court of law.
In this day and age we must be vigilant and carry video WITH audio recording devices and be prepared to record in a moments notice. It is a real shame that we have to record encounters with people like these and from police officers who don't like us exercising our rights.
A good video recording would prove what really happened and all the "Smiley" photos of the kid(s) at the zoo wouldn't help the criminal(s) in a court of law.
In this day and age we must be vigilant and carry video WITH audio recording devices and be prepared to record in a moments notice. It is a real shame that we have to record encounters with people like these and from police officers who don't like us exercising our rights.
Children don't punch a woman in the face through a car window and break her eye socket. Children don't continue to kick and beat a person who is laying defenseless on the ground bleeding profusely! Police officers have far more training than your average citizen when dealing with this type of situation. Not to mention they have different rules and department procedures that they have to follow. Rule of engagement and escalation of force! Showing a picture of them smiling and in their Sundays best wont negate the evidence or eyewitness accounts. In a self defense situation like this if you hesitate to ask your self how old your attackers are, its already to late! You see children and I see criminals! One person open carrying in that crowd and I bet these thugs would think twice before doing something like this again!
Interceptor_Knight
Regular Member
The cops came late to the scene. When they showed up, the immanent threat to life was likely not present. If someone is kicking someone in the head, the LEO yells to stop and they do, the threat is no longer immanent. Administrative procedure for crowd control by a LEO is different than what a victim is experiencing while being attacked by the crowd.
Interceptor_Knight
Regular Member
It makes it difficult but not so much that they can not be prosecuted and found guilty of felony battery. This is not some small town where everyone knows everyone, everyone loves their neighbor and children are innocent gentle creatures. Milwaukee County is accustomed to successfully prosecuting violent "children".
Last edited:
are you really planning on shooting 50 people? do you have any idea how ridiculous that is?
It is better to have and not need than to need and not have.
HandyHamlet
Regular Member
Trip20
Regular Member
If you fixate on a number it certainly sounds ridiculous. But if you simply consider defending yourself or someone else until the threat subsides (reasonable person standards) the number is really irrelevant.
Lurchiron
Regular Member
Interceptor_Knight
Regular Member
Great. No protesters were killed.... That is the goal. The problem is that the police did not respond with appropriate "riot" gear not that they did not use deadly force. They need to respond with less than lethal weapons.
If your expectation is that police will "kill them all and let God sort them out", you are experiencing a pipe dream.
Last edited:
- Status