Private Property, Boys suspended

[wrearick]

Wow! reading through some of the other rules via the link provided by FBrinson, I sought the rules for conduct on the bus and at bus stops. http://www.vbschools.com/students/conduct/content/pdfs/CodeStudentConduct.pdf#bus-regulations
The first thing that pops up is the code of conduct. In the overview the follow is contained (hightlight was added by me)

When enforcing the Code of Student Conduct, students and their property may be searched if there is reasonable suspicion
that a law or school rule has been or is about to be broken. School staff may question or interview minor students regarding violations
of the Code of Student Conduct and criminal matters without the consent or presence of parents or legal guardians.

So school staff (which would include the janitor) is able to investigate suspected violations of the law but is not bound to the same restrictions and civil limitations that professional law enforcement officers have to follow. Are our children not entitled to the same constitutional RIGHTS that we are? I was not aware that school staff were trained in legal statues and qualified to investigate and (as stated later in the text but not my quote) press the appropriate legal charges against the student.

also at that same link is a section on DUE PROCESS - anyone know if this was followed?

Due Process
[School Board Policy 5-36, B.]
With the requirements of fair and equitable
treatment of all students and within the
guidelines of the federal judiciary, the following
shall constitute the minimum due process
procedures to be followed in the detention,
suspension, and expulsion of students:
1. The student shall be given written notice
of the charges against him/her.
2. If he/she denies the charges, he/she must
be given an explanation of the facts as known
to school personnel and an opportunity to
present his/her version of what occurred.
3. The student shall be informed of the
conditions of the disciplinary action.
4. In the case of a suspension of more than
10 days or the case of an expulsion:
a. The officer, committee, or school board
which hears the case must be impartial;
and
b. The disciplinary decision must be based
on evidence presented at the hearing in
the presence of both parties. If the student
and parent(s)/legal guardian(s) fail to
appear, the hearing may be held in
their absence.
c. A parent/guardian will be notified about
the existence of community-based
educational, training, and interventional
programs. The cost for participation in
those programs not offered by the school
division is borne by the parent/guardian
of the student.
5. The parent or guardian of a student or the
student, if eighteen years or older, may appeal
the decision as provided in School Board
Policy 5-21 or 5-6 as appropriate.

If the principal or his/her designee determines
that the student’s presence at school creates
a continuing danger to persons or property
or an ongoing threat of disruption, the student
may be removed from school immediately.

 

[grylnsmn]

Let's look at the specific policies quoted:

1. Students shall be under the jurisdiction of the rules and regulations governing school activities while in transit to and from school as a pedestrian in route to the bus or at the bus stop and while riding on a school bus.

2. Rules and regulations governing school-sponsored activities that occur off school property shall apply to all students who are either participants in the activity or are spectators. Such rules shall bear a reasonable relationship to the purpose and functions of the activity.

3. For situations in which students are off school property and are not associated with a school-sponsored activity, the school administration will exert its authority over students only insofar as the actions of such students could substantially disrupt the educational process in the schools or deprive other students of their right to an education both in the curricular and extra-curricular program.

4. For all situations other than those covered in the above, the parents and legal guardians have full responsibility for their children.

1 would only apply if the students were actually "a pedestrian in route to the bus or at the bus stop". You might be able to argue that in the case of two of the students who were suspended, but not for the one who was in his own front yard.

2 Would not apply because it was not a school-sponsored activity.

3 only applies if they can demonstrate that it was something that could "substantially disrupt the educational process in the schools or deprive other students of their right to an education".

Unless one of the above 3 applies, then 4 takes over and the parents and legal guardians have full responsibility.

 

[wrearick]

My post was not meant to cite anything for the behalf of either side of the argument. That is why I did not quote anyone as a target for rebuttal. But, the post does have a reference or cite at the bottom. Do with it as you please, I'm not hear to argue with anyone. I just had not seen any reference to the policy linked by anyone else yet. Here is the cite that the school board lists (not me, but the school board). Agree or disagree, this is their claim.

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+22.1-78

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§ 22.1-78. Bylaws and regulations.

A school board may adopt bylaws and regulations, not inconsistent with state statutes and regulations of the Board of Education, for its own government, for the management of its official business and for the supervision of schools, including but not limited to the proper discipline of students, including their conduct going to and returning from school.

(Code 1950, §§ 22-72, 22-96, 22-97; 1954, cc. 289, 291; 1956, Ex. Sess., c. 60; 1959, Ex. Sess., c. 79, § 1; 1966, c. 691; 1968, c. 501; 1970, c. 71; 1971, Ex. Sess., c. 161; 1972, c. 511; 1975, cc. 308, 328; 1980, c. 559.)

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ABSOLUTELY NO beef with you on this. I am grateful for your research and sharing. What I am dumbfounded over is the power the board has given themselves over our kids. Assuming for just a moment that as per their policy the state did give them authority to make reasonable rules, what agency is the check or balance on what is viewed as "resaonable"? It is like they were given a blank check and told to fill in an amount for their services that was "reasonable" and we experience sticker shock when we see what they made the check out for.

so much of what I read at the link echoed what I was being fed by the chairman of the board and board members it is clear to me that these rules are being touted as their authority to act has they have even though they wrote the rules themselves. I am sitting here in disbelief, scratching my head and wondering who oversees the school board and their policies?

 

[wylde007]

You know, like "reasonable" gun control.

 

[marshaul]

i saw where MARSHULL said throw them to the cops (sorry so far back, i didn't look for it)

i had a thought, maybe that is just what they did and found out no law was broken. of course if they did shoot at passing kids that would have been assault.

do you think that maybe they were going with the lesser of two evils? or maybe if they could not have been charged with a law that this was another way of punishment?

I was thinking that. Yes, that may be the case. Or, it seems maybe it started with the cops, who turned to the school as an alternative to judicial reprisal.

 

[marshaul]

http://www.vbschools.com/policies/5-1_p.asp

Policies and Regulations
School Board of the City of Virginia Beach
Policy 5-1

STUDENTS

Extent of School Authority

A. Generally

Virginia law gives the school board the power to make reasonable rules for the government of the schools and to regulate the conduct of students going to and returning from school.

B. Board and Parental Responsibility

The distinction between the responsibility that the school division has for students and the responsibility that parents have for their children is difficult to define in other situations occurring off school property. These are situations in which students are not on school grounds and are not engaged in any school-sponsored activity, but they are either traveling to or from school or school-sponsored activities or they are maintaining the appearance of being a student of the division's schools.

The following guidelines shall apply:

1. Students shall be under the jurisdiction of the rules and regulations governing school activities while in transit to and from school as a pedestrian in route to the bus or at the bus stop and while riding on a school bus.

2. Rules and regulations governing school-sponsored activities that occur off school property shall apply to all students who are either participants in the activity or are spectators. Such rules shall bear a reasonable relationship to the purpose and functions of the activity.

3. For situations in which students are off school property and are not associated with a school-sponsored activity, the school administration will exert its authority over students only insofar as the actions of such students could substantially disrupt the educational process in the schools or deprive other students of their right to an education both in the curricular and extra-curricular program.

4. For all situations other than those covered in the above, the parents and legal guardians have full responsibility for their children. These situations where children are outside the scope of school authority include, but are not limited to, the following:

a. While a student is in transit to and from school in a private vehicle.

b. When a student leaves the school premises during lunch hour.

c. When a student absents himself/herself from the school property during the regular day without authorization from a school official.

Legal Reference:

Code of Va., § 22.1-78. Bylaws and regulations.

1960-1961 Opinions of the Attorney General 274.



Adopted by School Board: October 21, 1969
Amended by School Board: August 21, 1990
Amended by School Board: July 16, 1991
Amended by School Board: July 13, 1993 (Effective August 14, 1993)

I thought so.

So the issue here isn't "authority", but rather the extent of punishment. As I've been saying.

Thanks for the cites, those who provided them.

 

[marshaul]

3 only applies if they can demonstrate that it was something that could "substantially disrupt the educational process in the schools or deprive other students of their right to an education".

It might be argued that 3 should not apply, but I guarantee you it will.

3 exists so schools can suspend bullies who act off school grounds. In principle it's a fine – and extremely common – rule. (Remember again schools only apply school-based sanctions as punishment.) I figured somebody would find this, because I already knew such policies were common. After all, it's well-established that bullying which occurs off school grounds can "disrupt the educational process" at school as well.

Now, I'm not trying to argue that this kid was bullying another, as I have no idea. But assault/battery is close enough to being under the umbrella of "bullying" that I guarantee you that, in practice, every school around will assert "authority" over students who physically abuse other students, on or off school grounds.

 

[wrearick]

Mr. Edwards response was shorter.
........his response (with no cite mind you) was:
Mr Rearick:
By state statute and parental expectation we do have responsibility for student safety at and going to/from bus stops.
I have asked our transportation staff to review your bus stop concerns.
By any definition I can find, a gun which shoots pellets, hard or soft, is a pellet gun.Sincerely,
Dan Edwards
School Board Chairman

got a chance to reply to Mr. Edwards:
(trying to get him to stop claiming the boys were shooting pellet guns)

Sorry fot the delay, but I work two jobs.

Thank you for your assistance with the bus stop.

This link makes the difference in the weapons name better than I can. I think it is in everyone's best interest to be as factual and accurate as possible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pellet_gun

Bill Rearick

[from wikipedia]: An air gun or airgun (also called pellet gun) is any one of a variety of guns that propel projectiles by means of compressed air or other gas, in contrast to firearms which use a propellant charge. Both the rifle and pistol forms (air rifle and air pistol) normally fire metallic projectiles, either pellets or spherical balls based on the BB size of birdshot - although a few fire darts.[1][2]

Air guns that only use plastic projectiles are classified as airsoft guns.

The earliest airguns were more effective compared to contemporary early firearms for many hunting and military uses, but as firearms improved the airgun became largely relegated to sport target shooting and plinking. Neither of these uses required much power, and so airguns came to be seen as a safe, less threatening alternative to firearms, and typically treated differently by legal systems.


will let you know what he says.......

 

[mpguy]

I think I'll email Mr. Fox. Maybe, he'll reply with any information he may have left out of the original story.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk 2

 

[papa bear]

just heard, now the boys have been expelled from school permanently. i personally look at this as a good thing since i am against socialized/government

i have not heard a explanation how the school decided this action

 

[Logan 5]

I think it's a great idea kicking the kids out of school. Now it's time to get them a REAL education-homeschooling. None of that socialist indoctrination garbage.

As for the political fallout, man it's gonna get thick. And it all depends on the actual event. Too bad there isn't a video....

 

[Repeater]

Lack of Evidence?

School's evidence lacking against VB student

WAVY.com contacted Virginia Beach Public Schools Information Officer Jennifer McCarrell on Thursday. We asked for all the evidence involved in Principal Matthew Delaney's investigation into the incident.

"I am unable to assist you any further at my level with your latest series of requests,” McCarrell replied in an email.

WAVY.com has filed a Freedom of Information Act request to get all the evidence in Khalid’s case. Count on WAVY to keep you updated.

Seems like full CYA mode here.

 

[Repeater]

Let Parents be Parents

Schools Are Not Parents

Guns are relevant here inasmuch as they probably explain the degree of the hysteria, which one suspects would have been diminished had the two children been playing with something else. Axes and hatchets are also illegal in most schools, but I am struggling to imagine a faculty punishing a child for playing with a toy version of either in his own yard. Either way, the unlovely truth is that the children in this case were penalized publicly for refusing to behave in their private lives in a way of which the local government approves.

No sheeeet.

 

[heckle]

Of all the moronic zero-thought gun policies, this has to be the most overreaching so far.

Have to disagree. I think that the link below is the most moronic. Not sure how many know about "deaf culture" but deaf people have what are called "sign names". This childs name is Hunter and you can guess what his "sign name" looked like....

http://www.care2.com/causes/deaf-ch...violates-gun-policy-says-school-district.html

 

[lil_shawn1990]

well this is ridiculous. When i was in middle school during our hunters safety course we shot bb guns on the school playground for a "qualification test" that we could safely handle a firearm. first day we went over proper weapons handling procedures then everyday for a month we went out for 30 mins and shot about 50 bb's each, 25 rifle and 25 pistol. I also grew up in a town with a population of 900 and only had 10 kids in my class. seems small towns have more common sense to me. i thought all schools did this until i joined the military and went outside my southern comfort zone.

 

[MamabearCali]

I had the misfortune of being (barely) educated by this very school system. Fifteen years ago when I graduated they were already in full CYA mode. There was no common sense, only procedure. If you had a situation that required them to actually work or think for themselves....forget about it. The kids are much better off being educated elsewhere.

There were good teachers.....but the admin was the epitome of stupid.

Now I think the kids needed their hides tanned and their toys confiscated for a time determined by their parental units. But I don't see this as a school issue. It is yet another overreach by the schools into people's private lives.

 

[Mattimusmaximus]

I really don't see how (unless the children are showing up abused under clothed malnutrition or with out supplies to learn) they can report or do anything about the house hold. They have no right and no say if it was my child then he or she would be dropped of at school and when givin this suspension I would absolutely fight it.
If my child was caught smoking weed out side of school it's not there business to punish. Same with any activity outside of school.
And side note when I was in high school they told me I'm there business till I reached my moms front door. BS!


-Matt of Hillsboro OR-

 

[user]

School boards acting as though they were law enforcement authorities has gotten out of hand. If the kid committed an act that, if he were an adult, would be a crime, let them make out a complaint and take it to the proper authority, the local J&DR court. Otherwise, cut the crap. Part of the reason for violence in our society is that kids grow up thinking it's ok to commit criminal acts because the school systems do nothing about actual thefts, assault, and destruction of property. And, on the other hand, they pull stupid stunts like this. These people clearly don't have brains in their heads, and they're responsible for education???? What the ____ is going on?

Hey, I have an idea... contribute money to the VCDL PAC and work to get sensible people elected to public office!

 

[Grapeshot]

--snip--

Hey, I have an idea... contribute money to the VCDL PAC and work to get sensible people elected to public office!

A lot of the members do not understand that VCDL cannot give funds to the VCDL PAC from dues or sales of merchandise.

Contributions to the PAC (political action committee) must be made directly and for that purpose. The PAC is very much in need of funds - hope everybody will dig in and give a little.