Red Flag Bill

[poetdante]

'Red Flag' law proposed in Kentucky to take guns from people perceived as a threat - support from both sides

The Extreme Risk Protection Orders would allow family or police to petition a judge to temporarily take guns away from someone who is an immediate threat to themselves or others.

Very vague. What constitutes a dangerous person? They are depriving liberty and property without due process.

Louisville Democratic State Senator Morgan McGarvey is teaming up with Republican State Senators Julie Raque Adams of Louisville, and Paul Hornback of Shelbyville, to support the measure. Louisville Metro Police also supports the "red flag" proposal.

Adams voted against the permitless concealed carry bill. I tried reaching out to her as my state senator but she has not responded enthusiastically to a sit-down talk on her anti-gun stance.

false reporting on someone to get guns taken away would be a misdemeanor.

Given that charges are brought at the discretion of the Commonwealth's attorney, I foresee NONE of the false claims being prosecuted. In my experience with EPOs, the standard for issuing them is VERY low. I'm talking a subjective hunch on whether that thing the applicant is saying is true or not. From my colleagues and friends who have worked in the Jefferson County domestic violence clinic, they report that no evidence is needed for an EPO, just go in and ask for one. Cops come and take your guns, you get your day in court two weeks later. Even then, most continue on to being pursued as DVOs and the like. I have yet to see one false EPO claim being prosecuted.

 

[Ghost1958]

Been keeping tabs on this. It won't be filed until November.

Even though odds of the bill passing are miniscule, or Bevin signing it if it should slip thru even less, Kentuckians,should start hammering their respective reps that a vote for this is basically a resignation from office.

This bill if passed would not stand a court challenge as the KY legislature has no authority to regulate weapons at all ,other than concealed carry of deadly weapons. Period.

 

[solus]

Forgive poetdante...your cite contained tidbit of information...

“The legislation is still being written...”

Ifs, maybes, perhaps, could, and wishes do not make legislation ~ pipe dreams yes and good fodder for campaign election rhetoric in newspeek/social media but mean absolutely, unequivocally nothing whatsoever!

How on earth can you argue against something that is a concept and not concrete...?

 

[poetdante]

No need to ask forgivness Solus. Often times, not always but often, when proposed legislation is being written and when it makes the news, especially with hot-topic issues like gun control, it tends to at least become a proposed bill. From what I can recall anyway. I'm sure it's possible that those with more exposure than I have in gun rights activism can recall times when the idea for a bill died before it was even filed.

I can argue against a concept that is entirely bad. Red flag laws, the entire idea of red flag laws, are entirely bad. There is NOTHING good that comes from them. The potential for their abuse would be much worse than similar channels of deprivation of gun rights and other liberties, such as EPOs.

The red flag bill is coming. It may not get past a hearing. It probably won't get signed by Gov. Bevin. But it will be a bill if my experience with Frankfort has taught me anything

 

[OC for ME]

If the feds enact a federal ERPO then the states will be off the hook...and local cops will be free to further infringe upon our 2A guarantee...a federal law they will enthusiastically enforce...

 

[color of law]

If the feds enact a federal ERPO then the states will be off the hook...and local cops will be free to further infringe upon our 2A guarantee...a federal law they will enthusiastically enforce...

But states cannot be forced to enforce federal law.

 

[OC for ME]

True, but who is going to prevent a cop from enforcing a federal law he agrees with...because he disagrees with OCing citizens, let alone a CCing citizen.

 

[poetdante]

Don't forget that Feds can "encourage" states to enforce their laws through funding. i.e. enforce the federal red-flag laws or have your own on the books or no more federal LEO grants to your local police departments

 

[Chief Ten Beers]

With all of this Red Flag crap, and if it passes on a federal level, I see a civil war coming, because people will fight back.

 

[Ghost1958]

True, but who is going to prevent a cop from enforcing a federal law he agrees with...because he disagrees with OCing citizens, let alone a CCing citizen.

The Governor , mayors, sherriffs, just to name a few. I won't even mention the bloodbath such a law would cause in Ky.

 

[Liberty4Ever]

The interim session is discussing Kentucky's Red Flag bill TOMORROW. Here's the notification I just received from Gun Owners of America.

Governor-elect Andy Beshear (D) has not even taken office yet, and the first piece of gun control legislation is already on the move in Kentucky.

On Friday, November 22, “red flag” gun grabs will be considered by the interim Joint Judiciary Committee in Lexington.
As we have seen before, “red flag” laws are nothing more than another way of saying gun confiscation orders -- letting the courts seize a person's firearms without due process and without the person being able to defend their innocence beforehand.
We need to remind the members of the committee and the leadership in the General Assembly that any support for gun control in Kentucky will not be tolerated.
Please take action and tell the committee members and leadership to reject the calls for gun control, including red flag gun grab laws.
In liberty,
Matthew Patterson
Director of State and Local Affairs
Gun Owners of America

Anyone want to make this an open carry event?

 

[Liberty4Ever]

I followed the GOA link (it's in the quoted portion of my previous email) and sent an email to the committee, which includes Savannah Maddox and a few others I'd expect to be pro 2A. Here's the edited version of the GOA email that I sent.

Gun Confiscation Orders Are Unconstitutional (2nd, 4th and 8th Amendments)

Red flag laws are an attack on due process.

They're also a great way to vote yourself out of office in Kentucky. We take our gun rights VERY seriously.

The “ex parte” orders -- common to all of the “red-flag” gun confiscations -- would strip a gun owner of his constitutional rights with no notice and no due process whatsoever.

We know, from experience, judges presented with these ex parte orders would virtually sign anything that is put before them.

In an analogous case in New Mexico, a housewife was able to obtain a restraining order against David Letterman for supposedly sending her coded messages over her TV set.

It’s no wonder that multiple state American Civil Liberties Union chapters agree that red-flag Gun Confiscation Orders are unconstitutional.

Please reject this joke of a bill that would create Gun Confiscation Orders. And know that GOA will rate this legislation as anti-gun.

 

[Ghost1958]

To my knowledge no red flag bill has been proposed. The committee can talk all it wants but it cannot propose a bill nor pass anything on its own.

That said it's never a bad thing to hammer ones reps .

 

[Ghost1958]

True, but who is going to prevent a cop from enforcing a federal law he agrees with...because he disagrees with OCing citizens, let alone a CCing citizen.

In ky fear and common sense. In a lot of this state a effort to confiscate ones guns without a trial or crime being committed is a guaranteed firefight.
Cops dont get paid enough to knowingly be led to slaughter by policy wonks.

 

[Liberty4Ever]

To my knowledge no red flag bill has been proposed. The committee can talk all it wants but it cannot propose a bill nor pass anything on its own.

The first step in proposing a bill is to kick it around an interim committee. That definitely indicates some interest. They hammer out a bill that they believe can pass. Once the regular legislative session starts, the bill is then passed out of the committee and sent to the floor for a vote.

A Kentucky red flag law shouldn't make it out of committee, but the fact that it's before the interim committee indicates that the leadership has an interest in passing some sort of bill.

Hopefully, this is nothing but a political payback in exchange for a large anti-gun political contribution. They shouldn't be able to pass a red flag gun confiscation in Kentucky, and I don't think many legislators (other than mostly Lexington and Louisville) would want to even be caught voting for such a bill, even if it didn't pass. I hope this interim committee is the work product in payment for a Bloomberg funded political contribution and it's not going anywhere, but you know how anti-gun laws are passed. It's all done incrementally. The first step is simply talking about an anti-gun bill. Once that's tolerated, it ratchets up from there, eventually culminating in a shiny new infringement that almost never goes away. Governments do not want an armed citizenry. The deck is stacked against civilian firearms ownership.

 

[OC for ME]

Blood bath?...like the one that occurred when CCing became "common?"

 

[Ghost1958]

The first step in proposing a bill is to kick it around an interim committee. That definitely indicates some interest. They hammer out a bill that they believe can pass. Once the regular legislative session starts, the bill is then passed out of the committee and sent to the floor for a vote.

A Kentucky red flag law shouldn't make it out of committee, but the fact that it's before the interim committee indicates that the leadership has an interest in passing some sort of bill.

Hopefully, this is nothing but a political payback in exchange for a large anti-gun political contribution. They shouldn't be able to pass a red flag gun confiscation in Kentucky, and I don't think many legislators (other than mostly Lexington and Louisville) would want to even be caught voting for such a bill, even if it didn't pass. I hope this interim committee is the work product in payment for a Bloomberg funded political contribution and it's not going anywhere, but you know how anti-gun laws are passed. It's all done incrementally. The first step is simply talking about an anti-gun bill. Once that's tolerated, it ratchets up from there, eventually culminating in a shiny new infringement that almost never goes away. Governments do not want an armed citizenry. The deck is stacked against civilian firearms ownership.

Yep they kick it around, if it's ever actually a bill , and it dies right there.
I seriously doubt there is even a draft of such a thing in ky. Just alot of smoke.
One such bill was proposed before by a senator and it was completely ignored

 

[Liberty4Ever]

Virginia gun owners thought they lived in a pro-2A state, until their recent election. The vast majority of the state is still very pro-2A but the population dense areas that are DC suburbs and a small coastal sliver just tipped the recent elections and now they have an anti-2A legislature and governor and they're bracing for ten new anti-gun bills to become law. These were bills that had been proposed before that nobody took that seriously, thinking they wouldn't pass in Virginia.

The cost of liberty is perpetual vigilance. They only need to win once. We need to win every time. As soon as we lose on an issue, we take another step in the anti-gun direction.

Do not take the Kentucky red flag gun confiscation lightly. The bill has been proposed. These bills are becoming laws across the country. There is ample model legislation and our "me too" legislature waits until enough states pass a bill before Kentucky passes a similar bill. That's coming... sooner than we think, and much sooner if we don't make some noise and fight this.

 

[Ghost1958]

Virginia gun owners thought they lived in a pro-2A state, until their recent election. The vast majority of the state is still very pro-2A but the population dense areas that are DC suburbs and a small coastal sliver just tipped the recent elections and now they have an anti-2A legislature and governor and they're bracing for ten new anti-gun bills to become law. These were bills that had been proposed before that nobody took that seriously, thinking they wouldn't pass in Virginia.

The cost of liberty is perpetual vigilance. They only need to win once. We need to win every time. As soon as we lose on an issue, we take another step in the anti-gun direction.

Do not take the Kentucky red flag gun confiscation lightly. The bill has been proposed. These bills are becoming laws across the country. There is ample model legislation and our "me too" legislature waits until enough states pass a bill before Kentucky passes a similar bill. That's coming... sooner than we think, and much sooner if we don't make some noise and fight this.

Oh I make noise. Already have.

But. No bill has yet been proposed. It wont see the light of day if one is.
And only in the Louisville and Lexington areas would it be complied with if it passed.
Our legislature knows it's not enforceable here. Just political pandering right now.
If it gets to a vote the sponsors of the bill will likely vote against it as has happened with gun control proposals here before.

 

[Liberty4Ever]

No bill has yet been proposed.

You keep saying that, but it isn't true.

Bipartisan Group Of Kentucky Lawmakers Proposes 'Red Flag' Bill

The bill would let police or family to ask a court to temporarily take guns away from people if they present a danger to themselves or others.

wfpl.org

Politics August 8, 2019

A bipartisan group of Kentucky lawmakers has proposed a bill that would allow police or family members to ask a court to temporarily take guns away from people if they present a danger to themselves or others.

So-called “red flag laws” exist in at least 17 other states, including neighboring Indiana, and President Donald Trump recently signaled he might support a federal version of the policy.

Sen. Paul Hornback, a Republican from Shelbyville, said the law is necessary in a “strange new world.”

“I don’t look at this as gun control at all. I just don’t look at this that way. I look at it as public safety,” Hornback said. “I think the societal changes we have forces us to enact some good, common-sense type of laws out there to protect people.”

Democrats proposed similar bills during this year’s legislative session, but they failed without receiving a committee vote.

Raque Adams said she was optimistic about the bill’s chances during next year’s session, but that some lawmakers in the Republican-led legislature will need to be convinced.

I'm sure gun owners in many of the other red flag states never thought they'd have unconstitutional gun confiscations either.

There is such a thing as being too calm in a crisis.