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Red Flag Bill

color of law

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As I stated above, the Fifth Amendment says, in part, “No person shall be deprived of life, liberty or property without due process of law”.

Then I pointed out what Section 2 says above as it relates to Section 1 in the Kentucky Bill of Rights.

The guarantee of “Procedural Due Process” or procedural fairness comes from both the 5th and 14th amendments of the federal constitution and is circumscribed within Section 2 of the Kentucky Bill of Rights. See Turner v. Peters, Ky., 327 S.W.2d 958 (1959). Section 2 has been used to invalidate regulations, ordinances, administrative actions and even statutes.

Section 2 simply requires a minimal showing that a defendant’s life, liberty or property right has been affected in some manner by the state. The ultimate question of whether or not state procedural due process was granted revolves around the question of arbitrariness. See American Beauty Homes Corp. v. Louisville, etc., Ky., 379 S.W.2d 450 456 (1964). (Arbitrariness is so broadly defined that in this setting, it is simply equated with "fairness.") Id. (Thus, if the "state" acts outside its statutory powers, or did not afford the party fair notice or a fair opportunity to be heard, or if the action taken is not supported by substantial evidence, it is arbitrary.) Id.

In other words, was your property confiscated without due process of law; having your day in court before your property is seized. So far none of these Red Flag laws afford due process even though the courts says otherwise. But those states don't have the wording of Section 2 in their constitutions like Kentucky and Wyoming has.
 

OC for ME

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A judge granting a confiscation order is due process...in the eyes of LE...cops are not in the right or wrong business, they are in the legal or illegal business. This is why all cops (even your most vocal 2A supporting cops) always resort to "just doing my job."

A red flag law is a "civil matter", some may say, but when a cop shows up to your door there is nothing civil about the order.

Judges will rarely overturn a criminal statute...they do not want to be seen as getting involved in legislative affairs. This is why appeals on criminal convictions that do succeed are successful on procedural grounds, or the actions of LE, and not on the constitutionality of the underlying statute.

Nope, a red flag law in KY will be enacted if there is enough negative media attention on those who oppose such infringements...no matter what any particular state rep tells a particular constituent.

...good luck KY...ya'll gunna need it...
 

Ghost1958

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Kentucky
A judge granting a confiscation order is due process...in the eyes of LE...cops are not in the right or wrong business, they are in the legal or illegal business. This is why all cops (even your most vocal 2A supporting cops) always resort to "just doing my job."

A red flag law is a "civil matter", some may say, but when a cop shows up to your door there is nothing civil about the order.

Judges will rarely overturn a criminal statute...they do not want to be seen as getting involved in legislative affairs. This is why appeals on criminal convictions that do succeed are successful on procedural grounds, or the actions of LE, and not on the constitutionality of the underlying statute.

Nope, a red flag law in KY will be enacted if there is enough negative media attention on those who oppose such infringements...no matter what any particular state rep tells a particular constituent.

...good luck KY...ya'll gunna need it...
Never happen here. Be quickly repealed if one ever was as an unenforceable law.
 

Liberty4Ever

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Never happen here.
I wonder how many thousand times someone posted "never happen here" on OCDO, only to subsequently have it happen. I'm sure most Virginia gun owners a year ago would have never predicted their current anti-gun mess.

I don't think a red flag law will pass in Kentucky's House or Senate, but I've seen it happen too many times in too many places, to say it'll never happen here. I won't even go so far as to say it won't happen this year.



Be quickly repealed if one ever was as an unenforceable law.
The 1994 (so called) Assault Weapons Ban had a sunset clause that forced that awful law to expire in ten years. Otherwise, how many anti-gun laws are rescinded? I can't really think of any. In almost every case, once a right is lost, it's gone for good... until the next (usually bloody) revolution pushes the reset button.
 

Ghost1958

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I wonder how many thousand times someone posted "never happen here" on OCDO, only to subsequently have it happen. I'm sure most Virginia gun owners a year ago would have never predicted their current anti-gun mess.

I don't think a red flag law will pass in Kentucky's House or Senate, but I've seen it happen too many times in too many places, to say it'll never happen here. I won't even go so far as to say it won't happen this year.




The 1994 (so called) Assault Weapons Ban had a sunset clause that forced that awful law to expire in ten years. Otherwise, how many anti-gun laws are rescinded? I can't really think of any. In almost every case, once a right is lost, it's gone for good... until the next (usually bloody) revolution pushes the reset button.
The legislature knows that such a law is unenforceable in most of the state. They might as well declare a shooting war on their citizens. A red flag law is simply unenforceable here

You have a few pandering Republicans and libs playing to an audience, they think.

If any of them had the faintest expectation such a law would pass here they would never propose it.
 

gutshot II

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Central Ky.
We now have BR 342, George Brown's Omnibus Gun Control Bill, discussions of an impending "Red Flag" bill and now BR 354, the assault weapons bill. I have not seen any pro-gun bills from all of these "pro-gun legislators" that we are supposed to have that are terrified of being kicked out of office by the 25-30% of the eligible voters in this state that bother to show up to vote. I have not heard any demands for some progun bills from our gun owners that are willing to shed blood over these democrate sponsored bills Why are we not seeing at least one pro-gun bill? Are these Republicans so afraid of potential bloodshed over these gun control bills that they are hiding out? Will they dare to even show up on January 7 for the start of the 2020 session? Will the entire Ky. Senate dare show up to face the 8 democrats that appear to contol the entire chamber.
 

Liberty4Ever

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I was reading through this year's so-called Assault Weapon Ban earlier today. I thought of posting to this thread but thought it might be off topic given that it's a different anti-gun bill, and I also thought it'd probably prompt another round of "an assault weapon bill won't pass in Kentucky" comments.

Here's the email I sent to a friend earlier today:

I read through the bill, as opposed to the bill summary. It was the standard gun-ban "assault weapon" crap. They referred to a muzzle brake as a muzzle break. That's hardly the only example of them not knowing (or caring) what they're trying to ban. Ban it all! They want to ban STTGUs. From a post I made in 2007:

STTGU = Shoulder Thing That Goes Up

It's a reference to NY Congresscritter Carolyn McCarthy trying to ban weapons and not having a clue what she's talking about. Clearly someone else wrote her legislation for her. Brady Bunch, perhaps?

(Funny 50 second Tucker Carlson interview)

The bill sponsor should go in the accountability files. Jeffery no doubt got his 30 pieces of silver for filing the bill that isn't going anywhere... this year.

https://legislature.ky.gov/Legislators/Pages/Legislator-Profile.aspx?DistrictNumber=37

Tune in a couple of months later to add the co-sponsors. Kelly Flood, Marilou Marzian, etc. These people need to be un-elected.

They really do not like "high capacity ammunition feeding devices". I ordered a couple of more 30 round Glock compatible 10mm magazines and a couple of 40 round Glock compatible 9mm magazines. You can never have too many magazines. I need to fill them up and store them loaded. Ditto the box of Magpul 223 mags. An unloaded magazine is of little use.
 

Ghost1958

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Kentucky
We now have BR 342, George Brown's Omnibus Gun Control Bill, discussions of an impending "Red Flag" bill and now BR 354, the assault weapons bill. I have not seen any pro-gun bills from all of these "pro-gun legislators" that we are supposed to have that are terrified of being kicked out of office by the 25-30% of the eligible voters in this state that bother to show up to vote. I have not heard any demands for some progun bills from our gun owners that are willing to shed blood over these democrate sponsored bills Why are we not seeing at least one pro-gun bill? Are these Republicans so afraid of potential bloodshed over these gun control bills that they are hiding out? Will they dare to even show up on January 7 for the start of the 2020 session? Will the entire Ky. Senate dare show up to face the 8 democrats that appear to contol the entire chamber.
Eh Hem. They all aren't Dem sponsored bills.
Just ask your buddy Hornblower.

What pro gun bill would you like?

Open carry ? We have that.
Permitless carry? We have that.
Can't be disarmed in an emergency?
We got that.
No FOL behind signs?
We got that.
Castle? We got that
SYG ? We got that.

Carry in a bar? Likely that will be coming soon.
I know you dont want carry in justice centers from our conversations about that.

State preemption? Got that.

The few regulations we do have state level are geared to the wonderfull ccdw a handful of self appointed speakers for ky gun owners traded to get permission to hide their guns.
Everything else is piggy backed on Fed law.

About the only things left that are not federal is passing a law prohibiting GFZ in businesses.

Doubt you would go for that either.
 
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gutshot II

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Central Ky.
Eh Hem. They all aren't Dem sponsored bills.
Just ask your buddy Hornblower.

What pro gun bill would you like?

Open carry ? We have that.
Permitless carry? We have that.
Can't be disarmed in an emergency?
We got that.
No FOL behind signs?
We got that.
Castle? We got that
SYG ? We got that.

Carry in a bar? Likely that will be
I know you dont want carry in justice centers from our conversations about that.

State preemption? Got that.

The few regulations we do have state level are geared to the wonderfull ccdw a handful of self appointed speakers for ky gun owners traded to get permission to hide their guns.
Everything else is piggy backed on Fed law.

About the only things left that are not federal is passing a law prohibiting GFZ in businesses.

Doubt you would go for that either.
Show me one anti-gun republican sponsored bill. You can't there aren't any. The dems. are actively prefiling bills. Where are the progun bills by all of the republicans that you claim will save us from any harm? I am nowhere near as content as you appear to be. I'd like to see college campus carry and removal of GFZ in public buildings. I'd like to see the bar prohibition gone. I like to see the airport problem clarified. Where are these bills? I can't do anything about them because, according to you, I have not been appointed to do so? Where do I go to get that "appointment". The answer is " from Ghost 1958", I expect .

How did we get all of these bills that you seem to think are "good enough"?

How did we get all of these things that you find so satisfying? Did we get them from the rabidly progun republicans that you claim to be besties with? NO, we did not. We got them by "unappointed speakers" like me and other KC3 members going to Frankfort and asking for them from democrates. The republicans have done nothing for us until this year when, once again, "unappointed speakers" from KC3 with the assistance of "unappointed" NRA went and asked republicans for it.

The democrates have all turned anti gun. This leaves us with only one alternative, the weak-kneed, fearful republicans that must be prodded into doing anything for gun owners. Sitting back and waiting for them to ride to our rescue is just a short cut to failure.
 

Ghost1958

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Kentucky
Show me one anti-gun republican sponsored bill. You can't there aren't any. The dems. are actively prefiling bills. Where are the progun bills by all of the republicans that you claim will save us from any harm? I am nowhere near as content as you appear to be. I'd like to see college campus carry and removal of GFZ in public buildings. I'd like to see the bar prohibition gone. I like to see the airport problem clarified. Where are these bills? I can't do anything about them because, according to you, I have not been appointed to do so? Where do I go to get that "appointment". The answer is " from Ghost 1958", I expect .

How did we get all of these bills that you seem to think are "good enough"?

How did we get all of these things that you find so satisfying? Did we get them from the rabidly progun republicans that you claim to be besties with? NO, we did not. We got them by "unappointed speakers" like me and other KC3 members going to Frankfort and asking for them from democrates. The republicans have done nothing for us until this year when, once again, "unappointed speakers" from KC3 with the assistance of "unappointed" NRA went and asked republicans for it.

The democrates have all turned anti gun. This leaves us with only one alternative, the weak-kneed, fearful republicans that must be prodded into doing anything for gun owners. Sitting back and waiting for them to ride to our rescue is just a short cut to failure.
One republican sponsored bill. Unless your playing word games, your boy Hornblower. Red Flag.

No the dems haven't all turned anti gun and you know it.

We both know you and the NRA had little to nothing to do with permitless carry passing, other than sitting in the gallery. And we know what type of permitless carry Bill's the NRA comes up with from past experience.

There is no airport confusion. You can carry up to the federally secured zone. Nothing passed by the state will over ride that.

Like to have campus carry too. That said if you have a shirt you can carry on campus. No law prevents it. Campus no gun signage Carrie's no force of law.

You won't support carrying in justice centers or even acknowledge the ky constitution prohibits such restrictions.

Of course there were no such restriction until some folks went begging to hide their guns and caused such restrictions, that are all written carefully directed to concealed weapons, to be created instead of waiting a year or two for permit less carry instead.

And I haven't said any politician will protect us from anything. I've said and still do that 95% of legislature in this state know gun control is political suicide.

And that in most of the state gun owners wont comply with red flag ,etc anymore than they paid any attention to cc not being legal and ccing anyway.
 
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Liberty4Ever

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95% of legislature in this state know gun control is political suicide.
I wish that were true. I think the number is currently around 74%, and at the rate it's going it'll be 72% next year, and in a decade or two Kentucky will be facing the serious restrictions on the right to keep and bear arms that Virginians are facing today.

While we're making our Christmas list for gun laws to be fixed in Kentucky, I want to eliminate all of the many special provisions granted to agents of governments that make it clear that their government granted permissions are far superior to those permissions the government grants to the unwashed serfs - everything from allowing active and retired police officers to have free concealed deadly weapon licenses without the specified training, to allowing members of legislative bodies to carry concealed weapons in those legislative sessions and chambers when mere citizens may not. I refer to the latter as Leslie's Law.

 

Ghost1958

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Kentucky
I wish that were true. I think the number is currently around 74%, and at the rate it's going it'll be 72% next year, and in a decade or two Kentucky will be facing the serious restrictions on the right to keep and bear arms that Virginians are facing today.

While we're making our Christmas list for gun laws to be fixed in Kentucky, I want to eliminate all of the many special provisions granted to agents of governments that make it clear that their government granted permissions are far superior to those permissions the government grants to the unwashed serfs - everything from allowing active and retired police officers to have free concealed deadly weapon licenses without the specified training, to allowing members of legislative bodies to carry concealed weapons in those legislative sessions and chambers when mere citizens may not. I refer to the latter as Leslie's Law.

I agree totally with the last half of your post.

Can't go along with the first part.
 

Liberty4Ever

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Can't go along with the first part.
Normalcy bias is very common. Virginian gun owners are currently paying the price for theirs.

The fact that senator Hornback was elected from a conservative district and is currently "representing" his constituents by telling them that red flag laws aren't really gun control and we need this unconstitutional law because the world is now a more dangerous place (FBI crime statistics say the opposite) is an indication that Kentucky is slowly drifting toward more gun control, like the rest of the country. I wonder if there were people standing on the tipping stern of the Titanic, staring at the submerged bow while smug in their conviction that the stern wasn't sinking.
 

Ghost1958

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Kentucky
Normalcy bias is very common. Virginian gun owners are currently paying the price for theirs.

The fact that senator Hornback was elected from a conservative district and is currently "representing" his constituents by telling them that red flag laws aren't really gun control and we need this unconstitutional law because the world is now a more dangerous place (FBI crime statistics say the opposite) is an indication that Kentucky is slowly drifting toward more gun control, like the rest of the country. I wonder if there were people standing on the tipping stern of the Titanic, staring at the submerged bow while smug in their conviction that the stern wasn't sinking.
Respectfully disagree. What its showing is what has always been in Ky. Louisville , and Lexington are liberal centers in the state, along with central ky being much more left leaning than the rest of the state.

As far as Hornblower, follow the money. He will likely pay with his office for this unless he backs away from it. Just because he is Gutshots buddy doesn't promise him relection.

Also the " rest of the country" isn't moving to more gun control. Only a few states are.
Most of the nation gun control is a political loser, as it is in federal elections.

Last ATF wild guess is 2 guns for every man woman and child in the nation.

And that figure is hilariously low.
 
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gutshot II

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Central Ky.
I think you are wasting your time, Liberty4ever. After all, you are, as much as I, one of the "self-appointed spokespersons" for Ky gun owners who have held back the tidal wave of pro-gun legislation that would have been passed if we had just let the General Assembly do as they knew was best for all of us. Had we all gotten out of the way and kept our mouths shut we would have had complete gun freedom in Ky. 20 years ago. Even though there has not been any evidence of that presented, it must be accepted as an absolute fact. So sayeth, Ghost1958.
 

Ghost1958

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Kentucky
I think you are wasting your time, Liberty4ever. After all, you are, as much as I, one of the "self-appointed spokespersons" for Ky gun owners who have held back the tidal wave of pro-gun legislation that would have been passed if we had just let the General Assembly do as they knew was best for all of us. Had we all gotten out of the way and kept our mouths shut we would have had complete gun freedom in Ky. 20 years ago. Even though there has not been any evidence of that presented, it must be accepted as an absolute fact. So sayeth, Ghost1958.
You wanted an example of a republican proposing anti gun Bill's. Just one I believe.
Red flag , Hornblower and his partner republican traitor whose name I forget just now.

Nice reroute attempt though.
 

gutshot II

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Central Ky.
You wanted an example of a republican proposing anti gun Bill's. Just one I believe.
Red flag , Hornblower and his partner republican traitor whose name I forget just now.
. so far you haven't
Nice reroute attempt though.
No, I said show me one. So far you haven't done that. In case you missed it, here is a "copy and paste" of what I actually said in post #90 of this thread on Thursday, Dec. 5, 2019 at 9:31 am, "Show me one anti-gun republican sponsored bill." All you have managed to do is "talk" about people that have "talked about" a bill. There might be a bill some day but there isn't one now and there might never be one. So, you can't show me one, at this time. I am not responsible for your inability to read and comprehend what is written on this forum. All of this is right here for you to go back and re-read to make sure of what you say. Why do you never go back and read what has actually been said before you post such stupid and erroneous things.

In post # 91 you wrote, "I've said and still do that 95% of legislature in this state know "gun control is political suicide." Let's see, there are 100 members of the House and 40 members of the Senate. 95% would be 133 that you say know "gun control is political suicide." That means that there would be only 7 members that would want to vote for gun control. I can give you a list of more than double that. This is just one more example of your posts being pure BS. Your posts have no basis in fact, ever. Your posts are just utter drivel.
 
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Ghost1958

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Kentucky
No, I said show me one. So far you haven't done that. In case you missed it, here is a "copy and paste" of what I actually said in post #90 of this thread on Thursday, Dec. 5, 2019 at 9:31 am, "Show me one anti-gun republican sponsored bill." All you have managed to do is "talk" about people that have "talked about" a bill. There might be a bill some day but there isn't one now and there might never be one. So, you can't show me one, at this time. I am not responsible for your inability to read and comprehend what is written on this forum. All of this is right here for you to go back and re-read to make sure of what you say. Why do you never go back and read what has actually been said before you post such stupid and erroneous things.

In post # 91 you wrote, "I've said and still do that 95% of legislature in this state know "gun control is political suicide." Let's see, there are 100 members of the House and 40 members of the Senate. 95% would be 133 that you say know "gun control is political suicide." That means that there would be only 7 members that would want to vote for gun control. I can give you a list of more than double that. This is just one more example of your posts being pure BS. Your posts have no basis in fact, ever. Your posts are just utter drivel.
Just because you provide a list of an entire 14 members who you say would vote for gun control doesn't make it so. Even if true, 14? 20. Really?
I'm truly horrified. I imagine your counting you buddy on that list.
And you'll notice I prefaced that post " unless your playing word games". Which you were trying to shield you pal Hornblower.

If I were you I toss that word drivel around carefully. Glass houses and such.

Drivel IMHO is something like denying the ky constitution says what it says about granting power only for the GA to prohibit CC . In plain english.. Which you did in the NRA bill fiasco that you supported until you saw nobody else would. FOL signage and all.

Not too awfully long before you changed your handle from no 1 to no 2.

Again you change gears, duck Bob and weave but it's ok. I am used to that from you.
 
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