Liberty4Ever
Regular Member
Paul Hornback sounds like the most decent, honorable 2A supporting legislator ever to support and advocate an unconstitutional red flag gun confiscation. 
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Red Flag Bill
- Thread starter poetdante
- Start date
gutshot II
Regular Member
Now I think you have it right. Not everyone that does something that you disagree with is evil. Paul is an honorable man that has made a misjudgement. The voters of our district will overlook that one flaw. I doubt that anyone in this conversation could garner the admiration, respect and friendship that Paul Hornback enjoys.
Perhaps. Perhaps not.
Fact remains. Any legislator pushing or supporting red flag is pushing a law that violates both the U.S. constitution and Ky constitution in multiple ways. And needs to be removed from office.
Your district may adore this guy. Right now yall would be the only ones. Everyone else who is pro gun. ,pro constitution has him right up there with the Bidens and Fienstiens.
Wake up. He needs to go.
color of law
Accomplished Advocate
That is quite presumptuous of you.
I highly doubt that. Matter of fact I know better.
color of law
Accomplished Advocate
The KY constitution is somewhat unique from other state constitutions, in that, it is quite explicit in what the elected officials can and cannot do including judges. The KY Bill of Rights makes it clear that the government has no power over the open carrying of firearms in the public places including court rooms. Let’s look at the Bill of Rights.
Section 1 covers a number of things, but the opening phrase is very important: “All men are, by nature, free and equal, and have certain inherent and inalienable rights, among which may be reckoned:” The term “reckoned” is a phrasal verb meaning to deal with powerful people. In other words, anyone in power who attempts to interfere with all freemen’s inalienable rights may be impeached. Now, there are seven parts to Section 1 of which five address or effect the right to bear arms including enforcing that right.
First: The right of enjoying and defending their lives and liberties.
Third: The right of seeking and pursuing their safety and happiness.
Fifth: The right of acquiring and protecting property.
Sixth: The right of assembling together in a peaceable manner for their common good, and of applying to those invested with the power of government for redress of grievances or other proper purposes, by petition, address or remonstrance.
Seventh: The right to bear arms in defense of themselves and of the State, subject to the power of the General Assembly to enact laws to prevent persons from carrying concealed weapons.
I think four of the five are self-explanatory. Number six is the one that is interesting. It says that redress of grievances with those invested with the power of government may be dealt with by remonstrance. “Remonstrance” means a forcefully reproachful protest. “Reproachful” means expressing disapproval or disappointment. Together meaning bring out the Torches and Pitchforks.
In addition, let’s look at Section 2. Section 2 says “Absolute and arbitrary power over the lives, liberty and property of freemen exists nowhere in a republic, not even in the largest majority.” Meaning don’t be messing with Section 1.
We know Section 2 means what it says by reading Section 26. Section 26 says “To guard against transgression of the high powers which we have delegated, We Declare that every thing in this Bill of Rights is excepted out of the general powers of government, and shall forever remain inviolate; and all laws contrary thereto, or contrary to this Constitution, shall be void.”
“Excepted” means very simply “not included.”
What does this all mean? Very simply, it means that Red Flag laws allowing the taking of someone’s firearms prior to receiving due process is unconstitutional.
Section 1 covers a number of things, but the opening phrase is very important: “All men are, by nature, free and equal, and have certain inherent and inalienable rights, among which may be reckoned:” The term “reckoned” is a phrasal verb meaning to deal with powerful people. In other words, anyone in power who attempts to interfere with all freemen’s inalienable rights may be impeached. Now, there are seven parts to Section 1 of which five address or effect the right to bear arms including enforcing that right.
First: The right of enjoying and defending their lives and liberties.
Third: The right of seeking and pursuing their safety and happiness.
Fifth: The right of acquiring and protecting property.
Sixth: The right of assembling together in a peaceable manner for their common good, and of applying to those invested with the power of government for redress of grievances or other proper purposes, by petition, address or remonstrance.
Seventh: The right to bear arms in defense of themselves and of the State, subject to the power of the General Assembly to enact laws to prevent persons from carrying concealed weapons.
I think four of the five are self-explanatory. Number six is the one that is interesting. It says that redress of grievances with those invested with the power of government may be dealt with by remonstrance. “Remonstrance” means a forcefully reproachful protest. “Reproachful” means expressing disapproval or disappointment. Together meaning bring out the Torches and Pitchforks.
In addition, let’s look at Section 2. Section 2 says “Absolute and arbitrary power over the lives, liberty and property of freemen exists nowhere in a republic, not even in the largest majority.” Meaning don’t be messing with Section 1.
We know Section 2 means what it says by reading Section 26. Section 26 says “To guard against transgression of the high powers which we have delegated, We Declare that every thing in this Bill of Rights is excepted out of the general powers of government, and shall forever remain inviolate; and all laws contrary thereto, or contrary to this Constitution, shall be void.”
“Excepted” means very simply “not included.”
What does this all mean? Very simply, it means that Red Flag laws allowing the taking of someone’s firearms prior to receiving due process is unconstitutional.
gutshot II
Regular Member
Well, that solves everything. Red Flag laws are unconstitutional, so we don't have to worry about them. They will now magically disappear. But wait a minute, KRS 527.020, 527.040, 527.070 and 244.125 are all unconstitutional, according to you, and they are still on the books. They didn't disappear. KRS 527.040 has even been upheld by the Ky. Supreme Court. Those Supreme Court Justices disagree with you and say that it is constitutional. What are we to believe? At least one man was tried convicted and sentenced to prison under one of these"unconstitutional" laws. He may still be there for all I know. Of course, anyone with any sense would take the sound legal reasoning of "color of law" over some Supreme Court Justice who has studied the law for most of his life and has the power to put you in prison. You can't rely on them for any justice. Let's just pretend it didn't happen and keep telling one another that these laws are unconstitutional and then everything will be all right. If anybody brings up the fact that these laws are still around and nobody is daring to openly violate any of them we can just shout him down as a heretic. One more time, I challenge anyone that really thinks these laws are unconstitutional to just open carry into a school. If you have a Ky. CCDW you can't be prosecuted under the federal law, because you are excepted due to the CCDW. The only thing you could be charged with is KRS 527.070 and of course, it is unconstitutional. Which of you constitutional scholars will step forward to rid us of this tyranny?
Which is correct, your wise council or a ruling by our own state's Supreme Court? And more to the point, if you are correct, what is to be done about it? There seems to be no great movement afoot to challenge any of these other statutes, maybe you should advise the Ky. Supreme Court of their error. I have seen no violent protest or mass uprising over these "unconstitutional" statutes. I have not seen any state legislators sent packing from their offices in Frankfort because of their support for such laws. Where is the outrage that spawns the rhetoric here on OCDO? Where are the demonstrations in the street? Where is the civil unrest? How many OCDO constitutional experts were at the committee meeting last Friday to explain the Ky Constitution to the committee members? Why, they were all otherwise occupied with more important matters of constitutional law and such. Mostly they were here on OCDO posting between one another about how outraged they were, but not a word in the committee room. Oh, oh, now I remember all the OCDO members protested in private on the phone or in emails but not in public where they could be heard. This is all nothing more than howling at the moon. Nobody cares what you post here on OCDO. There will be no revolution. There will be no organized resistance. There will only be more words posted on OCDO. This forum has become completely irrelevant and laughable. A sound and a fury signifying nothing.
color of law
Accomplished Advocate
Two long paragraphs of rambling incoherent gobbledygook; then, contrary to the rules, belittle me and this forum.
gutshot, alas...i have not seen one word of organization nor notice from you to gather for a cause on this forum's threads which you incorrectly label "irrelevant and laughable"!
if memory serves several of the lads from ohio as well as this member have participated in meaningful gatherings in your state (i wasn't welcomed) and in ohio & virginia.
oh btw...short notice notifications such as "we're meeting tomorrow" doesn't count!
oh ya, now i 'member your pontification on this "irrelevant & laughable" site which stated... quote
unquote https://forum.opencarry.org/index.php?threads/concealed-carry-louisville-meetup.136164/
yes gutshot...seems it is everybody else's issue, now isn't it!
if memory serves several of the lads from ohio as well as this member have participated in meaningful gatherings in your state (i wasn't welcomed) and in ohio & virginia.
oh btw...short notice notifications such as "we're meeting tomorrow" doesn't count!
oh ya, now i 'member your pontification on this "irrelevant & laughable" site which stated... quote
Long ago, I gave up attempting to organize meetings for Ky. gun owners.
unquote https://forum.opencarry.org/index.php?threads/concealed-carry-louisville-meetup.136164/
yes gutshot...seems it is everybody else's issue, now isn't it!
gutshot II
Regular Member
Please, please, please read me the story of Mr. Cruikshank one more time. I can't go to sleep without it. It makes me feel so safe and secure. It is my most favorite bedtime story and you haven't read it but 19 times and I want to hear it again. This time, can you read the part where it actually accomplishes something.
There is quite a bit of open defiance of those unconstitutional laws.
And some progress being made.
However since you are not part of it, mostly on the other side of it actually ( let's go ahead with permitless cc in trade for FOL signage). Remember that? You simply deny its happening.
Those laws Red Flag included and every other gun regulation in ky that doesn't simply ban CC violate the Ky constitution. That is the ONLY authority bestowed on the ky legislature, regardless of some liberal robes opinion to the contrary that he plucked out of thin air.
For someone who claims to be so RTKABA oriented you sure get your panties in a wad when one of your cronies is called out as being anti gun, anti 2nd, 4th , and 9th amendment as well as in clear violation of the Ky constitution.
Pass a damn red flag law in this state and see how far it flies.
You sir haven't a clue except what your buddy Hornbeck would like you to believe.
Red flag has cost innocent lives an not so innocent ones already i. states that have them when LE was stupid enough to try to enforce them.
All Ky is not your little central ,liberal. moderate, part of it. Not even close. Dont be so quick to predict what you haven't a clue about.
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GUTSHOT "Well, that solves everything. Red Flag laws are unconstitutional, so we don't have to worry about them."
We wouldn't be having to worry about them but for your liberal buddy in office and his couple of cronies now would we.
We wouldn't be having to worry about them but for your liberal buddy in office and his couple of cronies now would we.
gutshot II
Regular Member
So, you are worried about it passing.
No, I was just speaking behind you saying " so we dont have to worry about it anymore" in response to COL.
It hasn't got a snowball's chance in a wood stove of seeing the light of day . I know that and you do too.
The effort will probably bring many voices next election to Hornblowers district to remind voters there of the RINO he is. Along with his wild eyed co sponsor RHINO whose name escapes me at the moment.
KBCraig
Regular Member
Insert Lysander Spooner quote here.
ah KB, now preaching sedition...
The right and the physical power of the people to resist injustice, are really the only securities that any people ever can have for their liberties. Practically no government knows any limit to its power but the endurance of the people.
The right of revolution, which tyrants, in mockery, accord to mankind, is no legal right under a government; it is only a natural right to overturn a government.
Liberty4Ever
Regular Member
I've been around long enough to have deep respect for all of the pro-2A work that gutshot II has done, and not just rallying the troops on OpenCarry.org - truly great deeds in meatspace where it counts and a lot of very important difficult grunt work that few people see. It seems he's become frustrated with the politics and I can't blame him for that. I've been working on 2A issues in Kentucky for a long time and I'm frustrated. I'm frustrated with other liberty issues as well. Despite our best efforts, there's a slow slide into collectivism across all political issues. Fight this long enough and it'll wear you down, like water eroding granite.
I feel a bit silly. I've been away from OCDO for a while. I dropped back in to try to encourage some real political opposition to the red flag bill that's coming to Kentucky and I feel that I've been ridiculed by some for trying to organize some meaningful protest to a bill that's "got a snowball's chance in a wood stove" so we might as well not bother. That's what Virginia thought and look at the mess they're in right now. I also feel that I'm being chastised along with the rest of OCDO for protesting "in private on the phone or in emails but not in public where they could be heard." I feel I'm being beaten up for trying too hard and for not trying hard enough.
With respect to political activism... I took a one day class a couple of weeks ago. One of the lessons is that we don't want a seat at the table. Many people think the best way to influence legislators is to be their friend. There's some truth to that, but it's more true that you'll compromise your beliefs and defend you legislator-friend when he does what legislators usually do, and that's vote for more government spending, more government power, and in general, more government. It goes against my nature, but to be effective as a political activist, legislators should fear you. If not, your friendly legislator will have a thousand pitiful excuses for why he supports bad bills such as a red flag bill, and you'll accept those lame excuses and maybe even defend your friend in public, because you want to remain friends, whether it's for social reasons, or because you hope that your access to his political power might allow you some representation in government. If your legislator isn't voting the way you want, he's not representing you and he's probably not your friend either. He's certainly not your friend on this issue.
I feel a bit silly. I've been away from OCDO for a while. I dropped back in to try to encourage some real political opposition to the red flag bill that's coming to Kentucky and I feel that I've been ridiculed by some for trying to organize some meaningful protest to a bill that's "got a snowball's chance in a wood stove" so we might as well not bother. That's what Virginia thought and look at the mess they're in right now. I also feel that I'm being chastised along with the rest of OCDO for protesting "in private on the phone or in emails but not in public where they could be heard." I feel I'm being beaten up for trying too hard and for not trying hard enough.
With respect to political activism... I took a one day class a couple of weeks ago. One of the lessons is that we don't want a seat at the table. Many people think the best way to influence legislators is to be their friend. There's some truth to that, but it's more true that you'll compromise your beliefs and defend you legislator-friend when he does what legislators usually do, and that's vote for more government spending, more government power, and in general, more government. It goes against my nature, but to be effective as a political activist, legislators should fear you. If not, your friendly legislator will have a thousand pitiful excuses for why he supports bad bills such as a red flag bill, and you'll accept those lame excuses and maybe even defend your friend in public, because you want to remain friends, whether it's for social reasons, or because you hope that your access to his political power might allow you some representation in government. If your legislator isn't voting the way you want, he's not representing you and he's probably not your friend either. He's certainly not your friend on this issue.
Correction sir.
At no point have I said ignore this Red Flag silliness.
I've stated several times that I have talked to my reps about it, I've even emailed Hornblower though I dont live in his district, and have stated folks SHOULD hammer their reps about it. It never hurts to do that.
That said I think even the folks proposing this garbage know it wont get anywhere.
But once again I'll say , folks should contact their elected critters about it.