Ron Paul calls binLaden raid "unnecessary"

[Metalhead47]

iPhone with autocorrect turned on, is a dangerous thing sir. It comes up with some "wacky" words at times. >.<

Of course it does. But it actually makes sense too, unlike the post in question :-/


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Beretta92FSLady]

**Deleted by Beretta92fslady, and sent PM to Gun.

 

[Metalhead47]

Peace, guys. Can we just let it drop, please? And try to stay on topic on our off topic banter?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Beretta92FSLady]

Peace, guys. Can we just let it drop, please? And try to stay on topic on our off topic banter?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I pulled my response and PM'd it.

BTW, the raid was necessary. I disagree with Ron Paul. Bin Laden plotted attacks against the U.S., and deserved to be executed.

 

[Gunslinger]

Fact: Her signature singles no one out, and therefore is not a personal attack.

I was not discussing (nor asking for a rehash of) some set-to that you two got into--even if you think it drew her to author her signature. I was simply addressing a specious claim that her signature was a personal attack of you. Plain reading says it isn't.

Moving on.

Her signature named "Gunslinger" and took a snipet of a quote of mine completely out of context. Only a complete moron would fail to misinterpret the rest of her 'coward, racist, cowardly, ad nauseum' signature as not directed against me. As I don't consider you to be a moron, the assumption is that signature was removed/edited to exclude my screen name prior to your reading it. A fact you evidently have not considered but I noted. The updated signature simply had a general comment, which she is entitled to, however idiotic, without "Gunslinger" being mentioned. I don't make specious claims nor would I have retaliated were the facts not as presented.

Now, you can move on.

 

[Dreamer]

I pulled my response and PM'd it.

BTW, the raid was necessary. I disagree with Ron Paul. Bin Laden plotted attacks against the U.S., and deserved to be executed.

Yes you are correct. Since the current administration agrees with Dick Cheney that torturing Al-Qaida operatives DOES glean valuable information, and Gitmo is actually a valuable and useful source of information, the ONLY logical thing to do with the biggest intelligence asset in the "War of Terror" is to summarily execute him., grab a few backpacks full of random hard drives and file folders from his "hideout", and then leave the site unsecured for a month before sending in a proper investigative team to try and gather more information from the scene.

Yeah, that's perfectly logical...

I guess the whole idea behind the Nuremburg Trials was just a colossal waste of time. The way to REALLY win against "terrorism" is to abandon the Rule of Law, toss jurisprudence out the window, and start going around the world--in VIOLATION of our own Constitution and International Law, and dispensing "street justice" to the bad guys.

That'll show 'em...

 

[Beretta92FSLady]

Yes you are correct. Since the current administration agrees with Dick Cheney that torturing Al-Qaida operatives DOES glean valuable information, and Gitmo is actually a valuable and useful source of information, the ONLY logical thing to do with the biggest intelligence asset in the "War of Terror" is to summarily execute him., grab a few backpacks full of random hard drives and file folders from his "hideout", and then leave the site unsecured for a month before sending in a proper investigative team to try and gather more information from the scene.

I am not sure if the current Administration agrees with 'torture' (waterboarding). Gitmo is a legal pickle, which is why Obama is likely not closing it down; it's apparently not that easy to do once it has been established.

Yeah, that's perfectly logical...

I guess the whole idea behind the Nuremburg Trials was just a colossal waste of time. The way to REALLY win against "terrorism" is to abandon the Rule of Law, toss jurisprudence out the window, and start going around the world--in VIOLATION of our own Constitution and International Law, and dispensing "street justice" to the bad guys.

That'll show 'em...

The way to win a war against this type of enemy is to imprison them for life, or put a bullet in their head. The former is good because they are not martyred. The latter is good because they deserve to die.

 

[jag06]

I've heard the COMPLETE fabrication line from 911 truthers and their ilk so much it's kind of a knee-jerk response. If that is not how the poster intended it, then I'll retract.

However, as I've said here & elsewhere, I do not believe the mentality of those who say "If we just mind our own businesses and leave everyone else alone, everyone else will do the same towards us." We have not "created" these current enemies (the islamic terrorists) anymore than we "created" the communists or the fascists of the last century. I truly believe that peace and liberty are utterly incompatible, because as long as you have liberty, you will always have enemies. Because they will want to take it from you.

Despite all our rantings, America is still the freest nation on earth (where else on earth CAN you lawfully carry a firearm in public? Lawless places like Somalia don't count), and THAT is why they hate us. If we "mind our own business" and just leave everyone else alone, all we're doing is putting the ball in THEIR court and letting THEM choose the time and place for the engagement.

And this new enemy is completely different from all the other's we've faced. They don't want to take our land like the fascists, they won't want to enslave us like the communists, THEY WANT TO KILL US. No bargain, no terms, no negotiation. Assimilate or die (WE ARE THE ISLAMIC BORG. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE).

prayingforwar made some good points. Christianity seemed to grow out of the "let's kill all the unbelievers!" phase a couple hundred years ago. I really have my doubts about Islam. It's been spread by the sword since day 1, to the extent that you never really hear about Islamic missionaries traveling the land spreading the Word, you hear about jihadists killing infidels. And they don't seem to be growing out of this "phase".

Your right, what was I thinking. They just woke up one day and decided lets attack America. After all we never meddled in their affairs.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/155236.stm

http://www.forbes.com/2001/09/14/0914whoisobl.html

he(Bin Laden) also received military and financial assistance from the intelligence services of Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and the United States.

The Afghan jihad was backed with American dollars

He(Bin Laden) received security training from the CIA itself

We funded and trained Bin Laden in the 80's to fight the Russians in Afghanistan. And we did not do it just with Bin Laden we have done it with lots of other groups in the middle east. I don't know what happened between the funding and training them to the lets blow america up, but its obvious we did something to tick them off. But if we did not fund and trained them, safe bit that things would be a lot different today than what they are. If we had minded our own business in the 70's, 80's, 90's, and today, we would not be in this mess. It was our foreign policy that caused this mess.

And lets not forget the NATO commander admitting that there is small numbers of Al Qaeda working with the Libyan rebels, who by the way we are helping. If Al Qaeda is one of our sworn enemies and one of the terrorist groups we are spending billions to try and track down to bring to justice, why are we helping a group who is being helped by Al Qaeda and saying its just a few of them its not a big deal?

You can't say we did not help to create these "terrorists", seeing as how we funded, trained, and worked with them. So yes, I call them fabricated.

 

[Gunslinger]

**Deleted by Beretta92fslady, and sent PM to Gun.

Response sent.

 

[Metalhead47]

But if we did not fund and trained them, safe bit that things would be a lot different today than what they are. If we had minded our own business in the 70's, 80's, 90's, and today, we would not be in this mess. It was our foreign policy that caused this mess.

Yes, they certainly would... if he had "minded our own business" during the cold war then the Soviet Union would still exist, and would probably control most of the world at this point (since not "minding our own business" kept them out of western Europe, central America, etc etc...).

Yes, things woulda-shoulda-coulda been handled differently in lots of places. Real easy thing to say that years or decades after the fact. Al quaida is bad, but the ever present threat of global nuclear annihilation from Russian missiles was much, much worse.

 

[Metalhead47]

Ahhhh good one. Never made that connection myself but good point. Nothing like a little history to put it in perspective.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[PrayingForWar]

"We should not fight them at all unless we determine to fight them forever." John Adams on the Barbary Pirates - 1787

"The ambassador answered us that [the right] was founded on the Laws of the Prophet, that it was written in their Koran, that all nations who should not have answered their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found, and to make slaves of all they could take as prisoners, and that every Mussulman who should be slain in battle was sure to go to Paradise." Ambassador to England Sidi Haji Abdrahaman, in London to Jefferson and Adams concerning the Barbary Pirates.

Ain't much changed in the last 220 some odd years. Anyone who thinks that OBL did not have marching orders is wrong and so is Ron Paul. Take them out at every opportunity because as Adams rightly observed, we are determined to fight them forever, not by choice mind you, but fight them we must.

Maybe the CIA really does have a time machine then eh? :lol:

 

[marshaul]

Maybe that's because my claims are actually correct, since by your own admission you can't find a single real world example to refute them?

Come on. You're smarter than this.

We're talking about our country. Our country is not able to falsify the theory that, without endless global intervention, we would not encourage terrorism, as our country has been engaging in endless global intervention at least as long as there have been terrorists.

And you actually BELIEVE bin laden?

And why shouldn't I? If his self-rightoues religious fanaticism led him to wish to attack us due simply to our freedom, he would have said so.

What, do you think Osama bin Laden has anything to prove to those he wants to kill? Don't be ridiculous.

 

[marshaul]

"We should not fight them at all unless we determine to fight them forever." John Adams on the Barbary Pirates - 1787

"The ambassador answered us that [the right] was founded on the Laws of the Prophet, that it was written in their Koran, that all nations who should not have answered their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found, and to make slaves of all they could take as prisoners, and that every Mussulman who should be slain in battle was sure to go to Paradise." Ambassador to England Sidi Haji Abdrahaman, in London to Jefferson and Adams concerning the Barbary Pirates.

So what? Name one religious person who hasn't justified everything they've done, good, bad or indifferent, in the name of their god. It's too convenient to pass up.

 

[Dreamer]

I am not sure if the current Administration agrees with 'torture' (waterboarding). Gitmo is a legal pickle, which is why Obama is likely not closing it down; it's apparently not that easy to do once it has been established.

Yeah, the current administration totally DOESN'T support torture...

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/terrorism-security/2009/0419/p90s01-duts.html

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=11228

http://www.alternet.org/rights/147808/aclu_report:_obama_continuing_bush-era_torture_policies

 

[Dreamer]

Yes, they certainly would... if he had "minded our own business" during the cold war then the Soviet Union would still exist, and would probably control most of the world at this point (since not "minding our own business" kept them out of western Europe, central America, etc etc...).

"Communism" was created by the large international bankers in NY and London. They funded the Bolshevic Revolution.

http://www.modernhistoryproject.org/mhp/ArticleDisplay.php?Article=BolshevikRev

http://www.amazon.com/Street-Bolshevik-Revolution-Antony-Sutton/dp/0959463127

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCFgwoQRtGU

They knew from the beginning that it was doomed to failure, but played it out for it's prescribed ~75 years, using it to establish the Military-Industrial Complex in the West and completely infiltrate the Governments of the West with political sociopaths and drain the accumulated wealth of the Middle Class.

The myth of the "Communist Threat" is part of the Hegelian Dialectic set up by these internationaists (who themselves do not hold loyalty to any nation, creed, or government). Create a problem, stimulate the reaction, provde a pre-scripted solution. Over and over again.. They did it with the creation of the USSR. They did it with the creation of the NSDAP. They did it with the creation of the "anarchist movement" in Italy and Spain after WWII. They did it with the creation of the Mujahideen (which "became" Al-Quaida).

Those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it, and until enough people see through the ruse of this geopolitical Hegelian Dialectic and stop believing in these fabricated "enemies", and START putting their energies into helping each other, cooperation, and trying to make the world a better place (rather than trying to gain "power over others"), thus it shall ever be.

 

[PrayingForWar]

So what? Name one religious person who hasn't justified everything they've done, good, bad or indifferent, in the name of their god. It's too convenient to pass up.

You're ignoring his point intentionally and you know it. Your objective is to paint all religion as inherently wrong, and that's disingenous. The point is, western civilization has been in conflict with islamic jihad, without provocation for 1400 years. The US did not start the conflict, the edicts of a flea bitten arab pedophile warlord false prophet cult leader inspired generation after generation of jihadi warriors to spread their faith or enslave the resistance. Show me where in the bible Jesus says anything about "killing unbelievers wherever you find them", or instructs anyone to spread his message with any sort of violent context.


Our foriegn policy certainly does aggravate them. GOOD. Our entire belief system is the antithesis to sharia, which allows for the free exersize of any religious belief. This includes islam, which is intolerant of that principle.

 

[marshaul]

Your objective is to paint all religion as inherently wrong

No, my objective is to point out that bad people, who happen to be religious, use their religion to justify their bad behavior.

In fact, the whole point is that religion is not the instigating agent. It's merely a justification after the fact.

 

[PrayingForWar]

No, my objective is to point out that bad people, who happen to be religious, use their religion to justify their bad behavior.

In fact, the whole point is that religion is not the instigating agent. It's merely a justification after the fact.

We'll have to disagree then. I think it's more than abundantly clear that islamic dogma inspires behavior most of us call terrorism. I'll agree that there have been bad actors, claiming to represent the interests of Christ, who have commited heinous acts. They're infinitesimal compared to jihadists, but at the same time they're arrested, tried, and punished by a jury according to secular laws.

Can you even jokingly say the same thing about islam? Show me ONE instance where a jihadist was convicted in a sharia court and punished. Hell, ask Dreamer to help since he comes up with the most obscure and ridiculous links to "news" a person can find.

 

[jag06]

Our foriegn policy certainly does aggravate them. GOOD.

That is the exact thought process that will keep us in a never ending war with no way of winning and will solidify the continued erosion of our freedoms. Maybe there is no hope for us anymore. But hey, its all to catch those evil terrorists held up in caves. At least we are winning the war on terror right? We don't have to get groped to fly on a plane, to enter a school, bus or train station, don't have judges at checkpoints to sign warrants to draw blood on the spot because you happen to drive on a road with a checkpoint, can still resist illegally entry into the home by LEO, still have the right to remain silent without speaking up, can silently dance in public, don't have to worry about having tracking devices placed on your car without a warrant, don't have to worry about being searched by a LEO without probable cause or a warrant, can say whatever you want about the president without being hassled by the fbi and SS, oh wait.... But hey, we are winning!