TN Open Carry Report

[independence]

You do know you just admitted to committing a crime, correct?

See TCA 39-17-1359

Like I say, you are incorrect on this. Here is the entire text of TCA 39-17-1359 as found at http://www.lexisnexis.com/hottopics/tncode/ along with my comments, which are in bold. Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer. Seek legal counsel for authoritative clarification.


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39-17-1359. Prohibition at certain meetings -- Posting notice.

(a) (1) Except as provided in § 39-17-1313, an individual, corporation, business entity or local, state or federal government entity or agent thereof is authorized to prohibit the possession of weapons by any person who is at a meeting conducted by, or on property owned, operated, or managed or under the control of the individual, corporation, business entity or government entity.

(2) The prohibition in subdivision (a)(1) shall apply to any person who is authorized to carry a firearm by authority of § 39-17-1351.

(b) (1) Notice of the prohibition permitted by subsection (a) shall be accomplished by displaying one (1) or both of the notices described in subdivision (b)(3) in prominent locations, including all entrances primarily used by persons entering the property, building, or portion of the property or building where weapon possession is prohibited. Either form of notice used shall be of a size that is plainly visible to the average person entering the building, property, or portion of the building or property, posted. ...So it doesn't count unless it is at all primary entrances, etc. Note that it also says that either one of the 2 posting methods about to be outlined below are legally binding. Here comes the first method...

(2) The notice required by this section shall be in English, but a duplicate notice may also be posted in any language used by patrons, customers or persons who frequent the place where weapon possession is prohibited.

(3) (A) If a sign is used as the method of posting, it shall contain language substantially similar to the following:

AS AUTHORIZED BY T.C.A. § 39-17-1359, POSSESSION OF A WEAPON ON POSTED PROPERTY OR IN A POSTED BUILDING IS PROHIBITED AND IS A CRIMINAL OFFENSE. ...Is "No firearms on premises" "substantially similar" to this? No it is not, as we see below.

(B) As used in this section, "language substantially similar to" means the sign contains language plainly stating that:

(i) The property is posted under authority of Tennessee law; ...Does "No firearms on premises" meet this requirement? No it does not.

(ii) Weapons or firearms are prohibited on the property, in the building, or on the portion of the property or building that is posted; and ...Does "No firearms on premises" meet this requirement? Maybe, but read on to the other requirements, noting that ALL these requirements must be met for the sign to be legally binding.

(iii) Possessing a weapon in an area that has been posted is a criminal offense. ...Does "No firearms on premises" meet this requirement? It certainly does not. And now comes the second possible method involving a "circle and slash" which is also legally binding...

(C) A building, property or a portion of a building or property, shall be considered properly posted in accordance with this section if one (1) or both of the following is displayed in prominent locations, including all entrances primarily used by persons entering the property, building, or portion of the property or building where weapon possession is prohibited:

(i) The international circle and slash symbolizing the prohibition of the item within the circle; or

(ii) The posting sign described in this subdivision (b)(3).

(c) (1) It is an offense to possess a weapon in a building or on property that is properly posted in accordance with this section.

(2) Possession of a weapon on posted property in violation of this section is a Class B misdemeanor punishable by fine only of five hundred dollars ($500).

(d) Nothing in this section shall be construed to alter, reduce or eliminate any civil or criminal liability that a property owner or manager may have for injuries arising on their property.

(e) The provisions of this section shall not apply to title 70 regarding wildlife laws, rules and regulations.

(f) This section shall not apply to the grounds of any public park, natural area, historic park, nature trail, campground, forest, greenway, waterway or other similar public place that is owned or operated by the state, a county, a municipality or instrumentality thereof. The carrying of firearms in those areas shall be governed by § 39-17-1311. ...Bonus: Be sure you read 1311 before assuming that you can't carry in a park.

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So you can see that gurn is breaking no laws by carrying there. Many here at OCDO would disapprove of him giving them his business at all though.

 

[FTG-05]

You do know you just admitted to committing a crime, correct?

See TCA 39-17-1359

No, the only thing he's admitted guilt of is being a spineless gun owner who freely admits to supporting anti-gun companies with his hard earned dollars. :banghead:

There's a reason Costco does not advertise nor post their anti-gun policies: They are catering to and counting on spineless and/or ignorant gun owners to continue to support them despite their anti-gun policies. Actually, it's pretty smart of them: the get to have their cake and eat it too.

 

[Fallguy]

No, the only thing he's admitted guilt of is being a spineless gun owner who freely admits to supporting anti-gun companies with his hard earned dollars. :banghead:

There's a reason Costco does not advertise nor post their anti-gun policies: They are catering to and counting on spineless and/or ignorant gun owners to continue to support them despite their anti-gun policies. Actually, it's pretty smart of them: the get to have their cake and eat it too.

Spineless? Ignorant?

 

[FTG-05]

Spineless? Ignorant?

Post #357. Yes, spineless and/or ignorant. Since he admits to carrying past a sign, it's spineless.

 

[Oh Shoot]

Like I say, you are incorrect on this. Here is the entire text of TCA 39-17-1359 as found at http://www.lexisnexis.com/hottopics/tncode/ along with my comments, which are in bold. Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer. Seek legal counsel for authoritative clarification.
,,,

However, there is nothing in the statue that say you are NOT culpable for carrying past a statutorily non-compliant posting. Contrast that with the carry in federal buildings statute, which states just that.

Until case law determines it, we don't know if a sign must conform to the statute wording for a conviction. You might be interested to know that our state AG has officially opined in the past that one could still be convicted of carry in a prohibited park if there were no signage at all! And unlike 1359, 1311 actually mandates minimum size of sign and exact wording!

- OS

 

[Fallguy]

Post #357. Yes, spineless and/or ignorant. Since he admits to carrying past a sign, it's spineless.

I'll just say I disagree.

 

[independence]

However, there is nothing in the statue that say you are NOT culpable for carrying past a statutorily non-compliant posting. Contrast that with the carry in federal buildings statute, which states just that.

Until case law determines it, we don't know if a sign must conform to the statute wording for a conviction. You might be interested to know that our state AG has officially opined in the past that one could still be convicted of carry in a prohibited park if there were no signage at all! And unlike 1359, 1311 actually mandates minimum size of sign and exact wording!

- OS

Excellent point. I'm aware of that ridiculous AG opinion.

 

[HeavyHolster]

Moved here from Michigan.

I moved here from Michigan about a year ago, within the last few months I have gotten my permit and I carry open everywhere I go. I am in the Nashville area, Madison really. One of the things that has really kinda blown me away is the number of businesses that don't have the gunbuster sign, Open carry in Mi is without permit, however a large number of businesses have signs that prevent you from entering. I have only had one kinda bad experience and that was talking to a Metro Officer on the 4th of July. I asked how much of the downtown area was off limits and his reply was he was unsure, but her would never carry the way I was "open like that" at which time I stated "I can see your gun" he then called his partner to see if he could answer my original question. It turns out no weapons of any kind can be carried into the barricaded area.

 

[OngoingFreedom]

It turns out no weapons of any kind can be carried into the barricaded area.

Welcome (late) to TN! This info you got from Officer Friendly is incorrect. Carry on.


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[OngoingFreedom]

Welcome (late) to TN! This info you got from Officer Friendly is incorrect. Carry on.


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Whoops! I misunderstood your quote but am partially correct. Carrying pistols/revolvers OC/CC with an HCP (or any other states' equivalent) is okay, as is unloaded long gun OC.


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[DrTodd]

I moved here from Michigan about a year ago, within the last few months I have gotten my permit and I carry open everywhere I go. I am in the Nashville area, Madison really. One of the things that has really kinda blown me away is the number of businesses that don't have the gunbuster sign, Open carry in Mi is without permit, however a large number of businesses have signs that prevent you from entering. I have only had one kinda bad experience and that was talking to a Metro Officer on the 4th of July. I asked how much of the downtown area was off limits and his reply was he was unsure, but her would never carry the way I was "open like that" at which time I stated "I can see your gun" he then called his partner to see if he could answer my original question. It turns out no weapons of any kind can be carried into the barricaded area.

I have yet to see a sign in the Grand Rapids, Michigan area...or in Michigan in general. Then again, I don't go looking for them. I will be visiting the Tullahoma area and as an ardent OCer in Michigan, I thought I'd read through some of the experiences here. I see it is not going to be as friendly as I find OC to be here in Michigan, but not as bad as it may be elsewhere. Note: Yes, I have a Michigan Concealed Pistol License; yes, I understand the TN law regarding signage; yes, I will be OCing on my visit.

 

[UnapologeticWhiteMale]

New to the game.

I'm a relatively recently converted "gun nut". I consider myself to be a smart feller. But, after lots of researching/reading about TN State gun laws, I am still very confused as to what is within my right and what isn't.

This thread speaks of the law as written to criminalize anyone carrying at any time under any circumstances but that their defense is "certification" after paying what appears to be a tax to the State of TN. I am in the process of acquiring my CCP but do not have it as of now. My concern is mostly to do with traveling with my guns in my car. I am legal to own and the mini-van belongs to my common-law wife. Not "technically" married but together for 14 years.

When I transport the guns(Marlin 22LR, S&W Shield 9mm, Walther p22 LR) they are all unloaded, locked and placed in the very back of the mini-van in open view. The magazines and additional ammunition are kept in the glove box. I am trying to deduce what if any risk of fine(s) and/or arrest I may be exposed to in transporting in this manner. It was my understanding that I am operating within my right as long as it is deemed I am not transporting "with intent to go armed". Which is why I separate the ammo and lock the guns in the back. Am I wrong?

Below are some references that I'm seeing that are seeming to contradict some things stated previously in this thread. But I would like to be fully confident. Please review and discuss. Thanks.

http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2014/jul/09/new-gun-rights-law-takes-effect/

RV/Car Carry Without A Permit/License
Notice: Until 7/1/2014 It is illegal to carry a loaded handgun in a vehicle without a valid permit/licenses to
carry. Beginning 7/1/2014 if you can legally possess a firearm then Section (e) below becomes law on that
date and if you can legally own a firearm and in a privately owned vehicle you can carry without a
permit/license.
39-17-1307. Unlawful Carrying or Possession of a Weapon. —
(a) (1) A person commits an offense who carries with the intent to go armed a firearm, a knife with a blade
length exceeding four inches (4), or a club.
(2) (A) The first violation of subdivision (a)(1) is a Class C misdemeanor, and, in addition to possible
imprisonment as provided by law, may be punished by a fine not to exceed five hundred dollars ($500).
(B) A second or subsequent violation of subdivision (a)(1) is a Class B misdemeanor.
(e) It is an exception to the application of subsection (a) that a person is carrying or possessing a firearm in a
motor vehicle if:
(1) The person is not otherwise prohibited from carrying or possessing a firearm; and
(2) The motor vehicle is privately-owned.
39-17-1308. Defenses to Unlawful Possession or Carrying of a Weapon. —
(a) It is a defense to the application of § 39-17-1307 if the possession or carrying was:
(1) Of an unloaded rifle, shotgun or handgun not concealed on or about the person and the ammunition
for the weapon was not in the immediate vicinity of the person or weapon;

According to this found at http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/tennessee.pdf Section (e) is now in effect and overrides Section (a).

 

[UnapologeticWhiteMale]

Just found this as well: http://www.tennessean.com/story/news/politics/2014/04/08/tennessee-senate-votes-allow-open-guns/7473297/

Perhaps a campaign could be setup to urge the House to pass the bill? I'm willing to participate and assist in organizing such an action. Please discuss.

 

[Nascar24Glock]

I'm a relatively recently converted "gun nut". I consider myself to be a smart feller. But, after lots of researching/reading about TN State gun laws, I am still very confused as to what is within my right and what isn't.

This thread speaks of the law as written to criminalize anyone carrying at any time under any circumstances but that their defense is "certification" after paying what appears to be a tax to the State of TN. I am in the process of acquiring my CCP but do not have it as of now. My concern is mostly to do with traveling with my guns in my car. I am legal to own and the mini-van belongs to my common-law wife. Not "technically" married but together for 14 years.

When I transport the guns(Marlin 22LR, S&W Shield 9mm, Walther p22 LR) they are all unloaded, locked and placed in the very back of the mini-van in open view. The magazines and additional ammunition are kept in the glove box. I am trying to deduce what if any risk of fine(s) and/or arrest I may be exposed to in transporting in this manner. It was my understanding that I am operating within my right as long as it is deemed I am not transporting "with intent to go armed". Which is why I separate the ammo and lock the guns in the back. Am I wrong?

Below are some references that I'm seeing that are seeming to contradict some things stated previously in this thread. But I would like to be fully confident. Please review and discuss. Thanks.

http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2014/jul/09/new-gun-rights-law-takes-effect/


According to this found at http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/tennessee.pdf Section (e) is now in effect and overrides Section (a).

What you're reading is correct. Prior to July 1, 2014, you had to transport your weapons in such a way that you did not have the "intent to go armed". Generally, this meant that (1) the weapons were unloaded, and (2) they were not readily accessible to be loaded (if you had a trunk, most recommended putting it in the trunk; if not, most recommended putting them in a locked gun case). A person with a handgun carry permit could keep a loaded handgun in a car or keep a long gun with a loaded magazine in a car (for a long gun though, there couldn't be a round in the chamber).

As of July 1, 2014, any person that can legally own a firearm can keep that firearm, whether a long gun or handgun, concealed or unconcealed, loaded or unloaded, in a private vehicle without a handgun carry permit. Note, however, that if the vehicle is being parked on school property or on property where the parking lot is posted "no weapons", that person would need to have a handgun carry permit to legally have a handgun in the car under those circumstances.

 

[Nascar24Glock]

Just found this as well: http://www.tennessean.com/story/news/politics/2014/04/08/tennessee-senate-votes-allow-open-guns/7473297/

Perhaps a campaign could be setup to urge the House to pass the bill? I'm willing to participate and assist in organizing such an action. Please discuss.

This bill failed in the House Finance subcommittee.

Don't worry though. I actually helped write this bill for the legislator who introduced it (Micah Van Huss); and I have it on good authority that this bill will be introduced again in the next session.

 

[cjohnson44546]

This bill failed in the House Finance subcommittee.

Don't worry though. I actually helped write this bill for the legislator who introduced it (Micah Van Huss); and I have it on good authority that this bill will be introduced again in the next session.

before you pass no permit OC... you should get them to pass a bill stopping "no gun" signs from having force of law... Someone shouldn't be charged just because they didn't see some stupid sign. Someone should have to tell them to leave first, personally. If its good for "no gun" signs to have force of law... why not make it so all signs put up have force of law?

"Turn off cell phones before entering" *ring ring* ... arrested!!
"No outside food or drink" *has a bottle of water* ... arrested!!
"No opened toed shoes" *wearing sandals* ... arrested!!
"No smoking" *smokes* ... arrested!!
"No running by the pool" *runs* ... arrested!!
"Turn off lights when leaving" *leaves them on* ... arrested!!
"Be considerate of others" *cuts off someone with shopping cart* ... arrested!!
"No chewing of gum" *chews gum* ... arrested!!
"Please pickup any trash or litter" *walks by some trash* ... arrested!!
"Photography not permitted" *snaps a selfie* ... arrested!!
"No profanity, violence, or yelling" *stubs toes and mumbles a curse word* ... arrested!!
etc etc...

its basically stupid for a store or other business opened to the public to be able to put up a sign that has force of law... but its even worse because people may miss it, and not even intend to break the rules, let alone be arrested for it. If they want to just keep everyone off their property and have "No Trespassing" signs, thats a different story...

I don't go in "no gun" places even when I'm in a state where there is no force of law... but at least if I accidentally go in one, I don't get charged with a crime.

 

[Meanaction]

That's good news.

This bill failed in the House Finance subcommittee.

Don't worry though. I actually helped write this bill for the legislator who introduced it (Micah Van Huss); and I have it on good authority that this bill will be introduced again in the next session.

Good to hear. Keep up the good work. I was follow this and a few others this year. I've noticed TN laws take a few tries but the ones I follow ultimately seem to pass. I now carry a OTF knife since our laws changed. New to forum. I live in Murfreesboro. I OC and have yet to have a negative experience. I do worry about being somewhere and LE rolling in shooting and asking questions later cause some panty has called 911 saying I'm waving a gun around. To be honest, the hardest part about OCing is tucking my shirt in. I prefer a more casual approach to my attire.

 

[independence]

You say you don't like tucking your shirt in...I often just leave it untucked and let it awkwardly hike up behind the gun. Think of it as the unmistakable open carry method.

 

[Grapeshot]

You say you don't like tucking your shirt in...I often just leave it untucked and let it awkwardly hike up behind the gun. Think of it as the unmistakable open carry method.

While Virginian's don't claim to have authored the method, but we did give it a name = the Virginia Tuck. Back when we couldn't CC in an establishment selling liquor by the drink, one would simply "tuck" their shirt/jacket behind the holstered gun = open carry.

 

[SovereignAxe]

Well, I guess it's time to resurrect this thread.

It's not to share an OC report, since it's been too cold and I've been wearing too much clothing to OC very often lately. Although it could very easily have been.

Sadly, it looks like it's time to mark Taco Bell off of our list of gun friendly places. We recently had our completely renovated her in Elizabethton. And I do mean complete. They tore the building down to the shell, and completely redid the facade and interior, and added a patio. One of the other things they added was this:



I'm not sure if this is even legal, as TN code requires that a sign be "of a size that is plainly visible to the average person entering the building," and I didn't even notice this one until I was already inside. Plus it's not on the door, it's off to the side, further away than the store hours, as you can see. But I digress.

Anyway, I did some googling after I got home to see if anyone has had negative experiences lately, and what I've found is that Taco Bell corporate policy states that carry is prohibited on their property except for LEOs.

Oh well. Taco John's is just down the road and they're better anyway.