imported post
Hawker wrote:
You folks want to promote open carry in Delaware, but you become very confrontational when what you perceive is an opposing view. I don't understand that. I'm guessing that in person, you folks really are good citizens and don't appear as hateful as your writings on this forum. So in saying that...... let'sgo on.
I'm very accepting and respectful of other peoples' opinions
as long as they are respectful of mine. I'm very much willing to agree to disagree and have tried to phrase my arguments so -- your previous posts have not; however, this last post certainly shows a more reasonable side.
Also, bear in mind that the first page and a half of your discussion was with people who are not from Delaware and aren't affiliated with our group.
To have greater acceptance and less resistance to OC, you will have sit down and address this subject of open carry with law enforcement, our DE legislators, and the general public at large.
We have done this, individually, to quite some extent -- we've discussed it with Newark, Wilmington, New Castle County and Delaware State police, all of whom, save for the latter, knew it was lawful behavior; however, that being said, you're generally going to see resistance to discussion or even a training bulletin about something against which there is no law -- particularly this topic.
The (uninformed) people of this state are not comfortable with open carry (yet) and you know it. Some education will have to be forthcoming by you. You will also have to address the opposing views. How you effect this will be very important to all gun owners, including those with CCW permits as well.
We have a common phrase on these boards, "Cite please." Many of us open carry daily and, on the whole have neutral or positive experiences and often wind up educating the people who inquire as to our sidearms. We keep logs and detail encounters with both people and law enforcement, so, if you have some statistic or experience you'd like to share that proves your statement, feel free to provide it.
My experiences have all been positive, even with a Delaware State Police officer who had helped me with a case of vandalism to my vehicle.
I came to this forum and stated that I preferred CCW over OC and that I favored background checks for OC. These are some of the comments that were generated against me by your OC Group:
> A gun-owner who agrees with gun control.
Is this an inaccurate statement? You advocated a gun-control measure.
> I'd put 2:1 odds that he's current or retired law enforcement. (and this from your group's leader)
Is this a derogatory statement? There's nothing wrong with being a law enforcement officer in my eyes and your view is common with some officers, and I still hold it as an observation.
Also, to clarify, I am not the group leader. I organize and collect law for this site. For the Delaware group, I simply help organize time and dates for our gatherings. We are not a leader-based group.
> he's a troll
This comment was not from a member of the Delaware group.
> I would bet he's a member of the Brady Bunch.
Again, not from the Delaware group.
> just what we need a punk with 1911
Valid grievance.
> he is a self rightous entitled sc*mbag
And another.
> I don't care about the publics perception while I OC
Nothing wrong with someone's point of view here. If we cared what other people thought about how we dressed, acted or lived, we'd all still be living in a High School popularity contest. Just like a African American shouldn't care what people think if he walks through a 'nice' neighborhood, I shouldn't care what people think if my behavior is lawful.
What are these comments? Does this show resolve or a commitment to your mission? Is this what you want the public to think of you and your group? I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, but there are many others that won't and that could hurt your good intentions.
These are social forums and the comments are reactions to your position and stances when you come to a site of like-minded individuals and pose a dissenting view. As I've mentioned before, the majority of the people with whom you were debating are not Delaware residents, nor do they speak for our group.
Hell, *I* don't even speak for our group -- we are a collection of friends and acquaintences who share a common belief who happen to get together every month for an evening of good company and good food and discuss what we can collectively do to effect changes in our local laws.
At this point and time, we are, by no means, a slick, organized face of gun rights advocacy in Delaware. This isn't and, most likely, won't be a full time job for any of us, though there are folks who are dedicated to putting a good foot forward for both open and concealed carriers as the current illegal laws and ordinances in Delaware affect ALL of us.
Obviously, some of us are more vehment than others and, while I can't apologize on their behalf, I can't begrudge someone who honestly believes 1) in the right to keep and bear arms and 2) is willing to fight for that right for both concealed and open carriers... which, in all honesty, is not the vibe I got from you when you exited the discussion, albeit under understandable circumstances.
However, please be aware that, if you do continue discussions here and constantly push the issue of only concealing, you will be the blacksheep and be met with constant opposition to your view -- you're not going to change our minds. If, on the other hand, you're willing to respect our choice, we can, perhaps, move forward with an agreeable difference, but for a common goal.
I'd like to see Delaware a shall issue state. I spent alot of money and time on this when it was the issue. It will come back again once the current admin changes. Hopefully, it goes down differently and is completed next time.
I certainly hope you're right and we look forward to aiding in that fight.
As for OC, like it or not, you will be presenting your arguments to gain public acceptance.
We do this by open carrying daily. Educating the people and desensitizing them to actually seeing someone peaceably carrying a firearm. In my mind, this is secondary to having the illegal laws repealed... Once we have the books straightened out and don't need to worry about legal issues, we can then focus on the social.
Delaware's gun laws can be fixed. We have preemption. we have a Constitutional guarantee. It's a matter of forcing the issue with the city and county councils. The law is on our side and by presenting the caveats of leaving illegals laws in their current form, the politicians will start the job on the social issue for us as they make these changes when they have to explain why the changes are required to their constituancy.
Not lashing out like you did here when someone has legitimate questions and concerns would be a good start, wouldn't it?
Let's see where we go from here.
If you would like to engage in civil conversation, definitely feel free to stick around and ask; however, your concerns are not new. Everything imaginable you can think of, we've heard in one form or another and there are equally opposing or superior arguments against them. It is a choice and a choice that we've made.
As I've mentioned, if you're willing to leave the topic of that decision behind and focus on gun rights (we do have a couple of people in our OC group who only CC, and that's great -- we still share this common goal!) definitely stick around or let us know how we can
help you in making Delaware a shall issue state. However, if you're going to argue our Constitutionally protected choice of open carrying, you will most likely meet mass opposition on this particular forum.