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Just got my carry permit illegally seized by deputy. (Video)

Not A Victim

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 14, 2012
Messages
23
Location
Le Mars, Iowa
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZ_UgNZxv5c&feature=youtu.be

This is total BS. No where in Iowa law does it say I'm required to carry a paper copy of my carry permit. It just says I have to have a valid permit in my possession. I gave the deputy a valid permit and he calls it a "courtesy card" then confiscates from me. Now I have no valid permit in my possession and I don't know what to do to get my carry permit back. I don't have the money to hire a lawyer so what should I do?
 

ccwinstructor

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Jul 11, 2008
Messages
915
Location
Yuma, Arizona, USA
On the Plymouth County Web site, There is mention of a "Wallet sized permit"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZ_UgNZxv5c&feature=youtu.be

This is total BS. No where in Iowa law does it say I'm required to carry a paper copy of my carry permit. It just says I have to have a valid permit in my possession. I gave the deputy a valid permit and he calls it a "courtesy card" then confiscates from me. Now I have no valid permit in my possession and I don't know what to do to get my carry permit back. I don't have the money to hire a lawyer so what should I do?
I would go to the Plymouth County Sherrif's website and make a copy of the mention of the wallet sized permit and print it out so that you can show it. It also mentions it in the FAQS from the state. The info at the Sheriff's department web site seems to be just a copy of the state information.

Then I would go to the Sheriff's office and file a complaint against this officer. You have all the relevant information. You might want to start researching what it would take to get any reports that are submitted, copies of radio traffic, whatever.

Just ask for your permit back and ask for followup information. Do not sign any waivers.

I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV, but it appears to me that this officer simply had the law wrong. Maybe the person that he wanted to call was someone who had expertise in the area.

I would start with going to the office and asking for the permit. If the law allows, record the whole situation.

Be polite, but firm. It only took a couple of minutes for me to find the Sheriff department web site.

Now I saw the second half of the YouTube video. Much is explained. The Deputy may well be wrong about the "paper copy", but he may have a valid issue about a photograph that is not recognizable.

I would not know about that, it depends on specific Iowa law. I believe that he is correct about Sheriff departments issuing permits, but I do not see any requirement for a photograph. That does not mean that there is no requirement, I simply did not see it.

I hope that is helpful. I would not want to put out too much information, I might even take down the YouTube video. You might have a decent lawsuit on your hands, that a lawyer might take on a contingency basis.

Please keep us informed, but be careful what you say.

P.S. I found mention of the wallet sized card on a pdf file called "New Permit Information Effective 1/1/11"

http://plymouthcountysheriff.com/plugins/show_image.php?id=309
 
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DeSchaine

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2013
Messages
537
Location
Kalamazoo, MI
Only one thing in that PDF that I saw that deals with what the permits look like, and its toward the bottom.

"Question: Will Iowa be issuing a wallet sized card or plastic card?

Answer: Current administrative rules allow for the issuance of a wallet sized nonprofessional to carry for those sheriffs offices that choose to do so. At present, it is anticipated that this optional practice will continue to be authorized by DPS rule."

However in this link it states in Section 724.4, subsection 4, paragraph i---

"A person who has in the person’s possession and who displays to a peace officer on
demand a valid permit to carry weapons which has been issued to the person, and whose
conduct is within the limits of that permit. A person shall not be convicted of a violation of
this section if the person produces at the person’s trial a permit to carry weapons which was
valid at the time of the alleged offense and which would have brought the person’s conduct
within this exception if the permit had been produced at the time of the alleged offense
." (emphasis mine)

Now, here's the seriously BS part. After doing a little research, I find two types of permits issued. First, the picture card style



Looks a lot to me like the one in the video. To all those reading, please note the white lettering in the red field at the top of the card.

Now, (and here I may be wrong) I think I found what the deputy wrongly was asking for.



I think this is very much a case of officer ignorance (or idiocy, cause really, you want to see a non pic ID over an ID with a pic? Please.) and I would lodge formal complaints with the Sheriffs office, the county clerks office and the IDPS.

From a professional standpoint, the fact that this guy made SGT. is about as disturbing an indicator as anything I've ever seen on the state of training in Law Enforcement.
 
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Not A Victim

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 14, 2012
Messages
23
Location
Le Mars, Iowa
That blue piece of paper in the post above is the old permit that was issued before the law was change in 2011. I use to have a permit like that but when I got my carry permit renewed in 2011 the Plymouth county sheriffs office took my old paper permit and replaced it with the new plastic card they issue today. As far as I know the Plymouth County Sheriffs office no longer issues blue paper permits.
 

ccwinstructor

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Joined
Jul 11, 2008
Messages
915
Location
Yuma, Arizona, USA
Only one thing in that PDF that I saw that deals with what the permits look like, and its toward the bottom.

"Question: Will Iowa be issuing a wallet sized card or plastic card?

Answer: Current administrative rules allow for the issuance of a wallet sized nonprofessional to carry for those sheriffs offices that choose to do so. At present, it is anticipated that this optional practice will continue to be authorized by DPS rule."

However in this link it states in Section 724.4, subsection 4, paragraph i---

"A person who has in the person’s possession and who displays to a peace officer on
demand a valid permit to carry weapons which has been issued to the person, and whose
conduct is within the limits of that permit. A person shall not be convicted of a violation of
this section if the person produces at the person’s trial a permit to carry weapons which was
valid at the time of the alleged offense and which would have brought the person’s conduct
within this exception if the permit had been produced at the time of the alleged offense
." (emphasis mine)

Now, here's the seriously BS part. After doing a little research, I find two types of permits issued. First, the picture card style



Looks a lot to me like the one in the video. To all those reading, please note the white lettering in the red field at the top of the card.

Now, (and here I may be wrong) I think I found what the deputy wrongly was asking for.



I think this is very much a case of officer ignorance (or idiocy, cause really, you want to see a non pic ID over an ID with a pic? Please.) and I would lodge formal complaints with the Sheriffs office, the county clerks office and the IDPS.

From a professional standpoint, the fact that this guy made SGT. is about as disturbing an indicator as anything I've ever seen on the state of training in Law Enforcement.

Good research. Looks like an ignorant officer who got the law wrong. I suspect that Not a Victim will get his permit back shortly. One of the best things this forum does is help to educated officers.

I doubt that he will make the mistake again, and he will likely educate others.

Not a Victim, I suggest that you be polite in your victory. It is best to convert an ignorant officer to our side, and this officer looks like he can be converted.

I am looking forward to your reports.
 

Not A Victim

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 14, 2012
Messages
23
Location
Le Mars, Iowa
I went in to the Plymouth County Sheriffs office today and filed a written complaint against Sgt. Rick Singer for illegally seizing my permit even though I was in compliance Iowa Code 724.4. Lt. Jeff Tebrink is the one who filed it. I ask the Lt how do I get my permit back and he said that he needs to get Sgt. Singers side of the story first and then check to make sure I wasn't breaking any laws when I was open carrying. This whole thing is bull crap. I've been open carrying for years and never had this problem before. Where these cops got the idea that you need to produce a paper copy alongside your valid carry permit is beyond me.
 
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stealthyeliminator

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Dec 29, 2008
Messages
3,100
Location
Texas
I went in to the Plymouth County Sheriffs office today and filed a written complaint against Sgt. Rick Singer for illegally seizing my permit even though I was in compliance Iowa Code 724.4. Lt. Jeff Tebrink is the one who filed it. I ask the Lt how do I get my permit back and he said that he needs to get Sgt. Singers side of the story first and then check to make sure I wasn't breaking any laws when I was open carrying. This whole thing is bull crap. I've been open carrying for years and never had this problem before. Where these cops got the idea that you need to produce a paper copy alongside your valid carry permit is beyond me.
I'm interested in following this story.

I know practically nothing about your local laws. I am curious, though, because I would expect that for any seizure of your card (whether it is the actual license or not, does not really matter) to be lawful it would need to be statutorily authorized. What statutory authorization does the officer have to seize the card even if you WERE out of compliance? If such an authorization exists, that's one thing. If none exists, then it appears that he just made up "justification" for the seizure out of thin air. In fact, it appears that way anyway, since he waffled back and forth on 1. whether or not he was going to seize it (was going to give it back, but then when you didn't lick his boot, decided he was going to take it) and 2. on the reason for the seizure (it is because you're out of compliance, wait, no, it is because the card is damaged [you should have asked him if he was going to fix it for you, hehe])
 

JoeSparky

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Jun 20, 2008
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Location
Pleasant Grove, Utah, USA
I think the "OPINION ENFORCEMENT OFFICER" was being a "richard" in that without having the permit on your person then one is subject to the more onerous restrictions on carry and car transport.
I don't think that I would have shook hands with him at the end or even said "thank you" like the OP did--- cuz the OEO certainly had not treated the OP with dignity or respect.
Could the OP have demanded a reciept or something regarding the seized permit?
 
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Darkshadow62988

Activist Member
Joined
Oct 17, 2010
Messages
242
Location
Iowa
This is worth suing over.

1. The way Iowa law is written the LEO had RAS to detain you. It is a crime to carry a firearm in Iowa. By having permits and presenting it to a peace officer on demand, people are exempted from being convicted of an aggravated misdemeanor.
2. Why the hell did you shake his hand at the end? :confused: Do you regularly shake the hands of people who violate your rights and steal your property?
3. The paper permit issue is crap and if you take it to court you will win because it says it directly in the law (Chapter 724) and the administrative code (Chapter 91) that the plastic permit (Form WP9) is "to be generated by the issuing officer including the type of permit, and, at a minimum, the individual identifiers of name and date of birth". The fact that the picture is damaged is irrelevant because paper permits, the type the officer claimed to want, don't have a picture at all.
4. As soon as you presented your permit to him(and he had reasonable time to see what it was) the stop became a consensual one. If you were not committing any other crime and he had neither PC to arrest you or RAS to detain your person you were free to leave. He was in possession of your property without your permission(because he used his authority as a LEO to demand and seize it). Your permit wasn't taken from you, it was stolen.
5. You shouldn't just file a complaint about this. You should file suit. You made it aware publicly, in the form of a written complaint subject to both federal and state open records laws, the posted YouTube video and in your choice to continue the conversation with the officer beyond what a reasonable person would have believed absolutely necessary to avoid further detainment/arrest in front of his vehicle so it would be recorded on his camera as well. Don't just whimper away like a puppy that got kicked in the face. It only encourages bad LEO's to behave beyond their authority and in ignorance when they should do their absolute best to stay within the limits of the authority they are granted by THE PEOPLE. Suits against officers doing extremely similar things like this get settled in favor of the open carrier all over this country for thousands(usually dozens of thousands) of dollars every year and the only thing that seems to get these officers under control is to hurt them where it hurts most, in their pocket books and in their reputations.
6. A writer at copblock.org wants OP to contact them(their email address can be found in the comments of the YouTube video)

You're in good company, on this forum, to find out the what and how things need to be done if you decide to fight for your liberties. It would be a shame to see a fellow Iowan make a mockery of our state motto.
 

Baked on Grease

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Location
Sterling, Va.
You're in good company, on this forum, to find out the what and how things need to be done if you decide to fight for your liberties. It would be a shame to see a fellow Iowan make a mockery of our state motto.
I think we misunderstand the state motto... it isn't the People stating that... it's the gov't. "We, the governing authority over the People, prize our Liberty... and OUR Rights we will maintain against the People."
 

IowaJack

New member
Joined
Aug 9, 2013
Messages
5
Location
United States
OK a few thing and random thoughts on this, some of these have already been mentioned.

1. According to Iowa Admin Code the wallet sized card a WP9 is a legal form authorized by the DPS

9. Form WP9. Authorization for Wallet-Size Permit to Carry Weapons, to be generated by the
issuing officer including the type of permit, and, at a minimum, the individual identifiers of name and
date of birth
https://www.legis.iowa.gov/docs/ACO/chapter/661.91.pdf

2. A while back I heard from a former student that Marshall County was pulling the same thing and claiming the hard card isn't valid.

3. I would have asked for a property receipt. Did they confiscate the firearm or just your permit?

4. I really doubt anyone would bother to "fake" a plastic permit card and if the person wasn't violating any other laws then the officer was just using poor discretion or flexing his authority just because or to try to send a message. all just speculation on my part.

5. I have emailed Ross Loder at the Iowa DPS on this issue and the same issue in Marshall County. He emailed me back a few weeks ago that he was busy and would try to get an answer. I never heard back, but I did email him again this AM informing him about this incident and asking him to look into it and for a clarification. I don't speak for the Iowa Firearms Coalition in a official capacity, but I am closely involved and will make them aware of this.

6. As mentioned, please follow up and file as many complaints as it takes to hopefully get this nipped in the bud. Not for just you but for other counties too and before this gets out of control statewide.

7. This is another reason why the wallet cards need to be standardized state wide. IMHO there is no reason why the DPS couldn't issue a standard template for the Sheriffs to use. My wallet permit looks different than the ones posted.

8. Last thought ans preaching to the choir here - Constitutional Carry for Iowa

Steve Hensyel
Iowa Firearms Coalition Founder
Hawkeye Firearms Instruction
 
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IowaJack

New member
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Aug 9, 2013
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United States
I just spoke on the phone to Ross Loder at the DPS. As I understand a Deputy called him to verify that the wallet card is a valid form and recognized. I dont want to quote or put words in his anyones mouth but as I believe the situation has been resolved ? Hopefully the original poster can give us a follow up here and confirm?

I would ask that everyone please not bombard the DPS or Mr. Loder with questions on this.
 
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Not A Victim

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Oct 14, 2012
Messages
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Location
Le Mars, Iowa
No follow up or update from the original poster?
I have not received any confirmation from the sheriffs office on whether the issue has been resolved. I'm going to call them today and ask for an update. But as far as I know my permit is still in police custody.

Update. This is unbelievable. I just spoke to Sheriff Van Otterloo himself. And he told me he just got back from a 3 day vacation and hasn't had time to go over my written complaint. He's going to call me back this afternoon. So my permit is still in police custody.
 
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ccwinstructor

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Yuma, Arizona, USA
It does not sound resolved.

I have not received any confirmation from the sheriffs office on whether the issue has been resolved. I'm going to call them today and ask for an update. But as far as I know my permit is still in police custody.

Update. This is unbelievable. I just spoke to Sheriff Van Otterloo himself. And he told me he just got back from a 3 day vacation and hasn't had time to go over my written complaint. He's going to call me back this afternoon. So my permit is still in police custody.
If the Deputy had any sense, he would have hand delivered the permit back to you, with a personal apology. Keep good records. Your reasonable amount of damages just keeps going up.
 

Not A Victim

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Messages
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Location
Le Mars, Iowa
Update. I got my permit back this afternoon. I didn't receive any apology from the sheriff. And the lady who handed me my permit back didn't seem to happy about me being allowed to legally carry a firearm again in the state of Iowa.
 

WalkingWolf

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Messages
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Location
North Carolina
Update. I got my permit back this afternoon. I didn't receive any apology from the sheriff. And the lady who handed me my permit back didn't seem to happy about me being allowed to legally carry a firearm again in the state of Iowa.
What kind of new vehicle are you going to buy? or new boat?
 

ccwinstructor

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Messages
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Location
Yuma, Arizona, USA
If I were a lawyer, I would not take it on Contingency

Update. I got my permit back this afternoon. I didn't receive any apology from the sheriff. And the lady who handed me my permit back didn't seem to happy about me being allowed to legally carry a firearm again in the state of Iowa.
While the Deputy was wrong, and the Sheriff department could learn a lot about being gracious and polite, I do not see a lot of damages to argue for. I think a suit would win; I do not see lots of money past the lawyers fees.
 
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