Let's get together and write the freedom to carry bill we WANT to see!

[GLOCK21GB]

I copied this from West Virginia's proposed law.

What do you all think? Should we include it?

nice. I do like it.

 

[MKEgal]

...from West Virginia's proposed law.

There are parts I really like. (Several quoted below.) The idea of a standardized mandatory sign that's BIG and very very obvious and is VOID if it's not as the law requires is great. IIRC, the KS law is similar... I'll try to dig that up & post.

Heck, if they're so proud of their denial of civil rights, let them show everyone. It'd make deciding where to shop a whole lot easier.
I also notice that this makes no distinction between employees & customers. So if a company wants to leave its staff vulnerable, they're going to be turning away customers too (as they attract criminals).

"All signs... shall be in the form prescribed by this section.
(b) ...shall not be valid or enforceable unless...
(2) Is posted at every entrance into a building where any person is prohibited or restricted from possessing or carrying a weapon, including every separate entry door at any entrance equipped with more than one door"

"including... the name, physical street address and mailing address of the person under whose authority the sign is posted and, if available, that person’s telephone number, e-mail address and Internet web site"

Would make complaints very easy.
Again, if they're so proud of what they're doing they can stand behind it.

"(c) Any sign regulated by this section shall clearly and expressly state whether persons licensed... to carry concealed weapons or authorized... to carry a concealed weapon without a license, are exempt from the indicated restriction or prohibition"

Authorized... as in the police?
You mean, they actually acknowledge that these signs would ban police!
Hot dog!
Wonder how many companies would do it, then scream when they called the police & responding officers stopped outside their building (or property) & said "sorry".
'Cause you know darn well NO LEO would leave her pistol in the cruiser.

"the omission from any sign regulated by this section of a clear and express statement... constitutes an express exemption from the restriction or prohibition"

That's how the law usually works, right? Unless told we can't, we can.

"failure to post constitutes defense"
"it is an exception to any criminal offense under this code... a defense to any civil action for trespassing and a bar to termination from public or private employment or any other adverse action taken against a person... that signage required to be posted under this section was not properly posted"

This is great.
If the company screws up, no more calling the police & lying that "we asked him to leave & he wouldn't" (as happened to someone at Mayfair Mall in MKE). Or rather, they could call & they could lie, but the police would look at the sign (or lack thereof) & say "sorry".
If they were good cops. I know there are some out there. (Heck, there's one I'd like to date!)

 

[GLOCK21GB]

I can see WAVE making those signs for Businesses & giving them away for free.lol

 

[paul@paul-fisher.com]

I can see WAVE making those signs for Businesses & giving them away for free.lol

If you look at WVCDL's site, they show a sample of a legal sign. It has the business name printed on it and contact information of the person authorizing the sign so you could not have a boilerplate.

 

[MKEgal]

KS info

I misremembered... KS only requires a "gunbuster" sign with a min. 6" red circle.
It must be posted "at eye height for an adult" (which is soon to be defined in law as between 4' & 6' above ground).
It must be posted no more than 12" to the side of an entrance.

Overall, I like the WV law better.
It's more hassle for companies, which is a good thing in my book. Make it harder & more painful for them to deny rights.

A notice from the KS AG: http://www.ksag.org/files/media/concealed-carry/CCH_Signage_Notice-2011.pdf

And their CCH info page: http://www.ksag.org/page/concealed-carry

Here's their law: http://www.ksag.org/files/KPFPA_Statutes_75-7c01_et_seq._2010_Update.pdf
On pg. 4 they make CCH license info confidential & a misdemeanor
"shall not be disclosed in a manner which enables identification of any such person"

pg. 6&7 list their "CCH prohibited" places... but doesn't mention whether OC is legal there. It does say that no employer may prohibit an employee from keeping a gun in their car, even on company property.

They use their license fees for administration (of course) and for county sheriff equipment grants.

 

[paul@paul-fisher.com]

So..... Unless I am told otherwise by Thursday, I will print this out and go to Madison.

I took Brass's 1st post and added the 'big ugly sign'.

Speak now or forever hold your peace.

1 An Act to repeal 23.33 (3)(e), 29.089, (2), 941.23, 941.235, 941.237, 941.24; to amend 939.22
2 (10), to repeal and recreate 948.605, 167.31 and to create xx.xx and yy.yy of the statues; relating to: the
3 common law right and the Wisconsin and United States constitutionally recognized rights to
4 carry and use a weapon for self defense.
LRB Analysis


The people of the state of Wisconsin, represented in the senate and assemble, do enact as follows.
1 Section 1. 23.33 (3)(e) of the statutes is repealed.
2 Section 2. 29.089 (2) of the statutes is repealed.
3 Section 3. 167.31(4) of the statutes is repealed and recreated to read:
4 167.31 Safe use and transportation of firearms and bows.
(4) EXCEPTIONS. (a) Subsections (2) and (3) do not apply to
any of the following who place, possess, transport,
load or discharge a firearm in, on or from a vehicle, motorboat
or aircraft or discharge a firearm from or across a highway or
within 50 feet of the center of a roadway:
1. A private citizen who meets all of the following:
a. At least 18 years of age
b. Never convicted of a felony in this state or in another state of a crime that would be a felony if committed in this state
c. Never judged mentally incompetent in a court of law.
d. Never convicted of a crime of domestic violence.
e. Never convicted of habitual substance abuse (3 occassions).
f. Never convicted of stalking.
g. Not declared a sexual predator.

1.1. paragraph 1 above does not apply to any person arrested in the process of shooting at or killing of state wildlife.


2. A member of the U.S. armed forces.
3. A member of the national guard.
4. A private security person who meets all of the following
requirements:
a. He or she holds either a private detective license issued
under s. 440.26 (2) (a) 2. or a private security permit issued under
s. 440.26 (5).
b. He or she holds a certificate of proficiency to carry a firearm
issued by the department of regulation and licensing.
c. He or she is performing his or her assigned duties or responsibilities.
d. He or she is wearing a uniform that clearly identifies him
or her as a private security person.
e. His or her firearm is in plain view, as defined by rule by the
department of regulation and licensing.
(am) 1. Subsections (2) (a), (c) and (d) and (3) (a) and (b) do
not apply to a peace officer who, in the line of duty, loads or discharges
a firearm in, on or from a vehicle, motorboat or aircraft or
discharges a firearm from or across a highway or within 50 feet of
the center of a roadway.
2. Subsection (2) (b) does not apply to a peace officer who
places, possesses or transports a firearm in or on a vehicle, motorboat
or aircraft while in the line of duty.
(b) Subsections (2) (a), (b) and (c), (3) (a) and (b), and (3m) do
not apply to the holder of a scientific research license under s.
169.25 or a scientific collector permit under s. 29.614 who is using
a net gun or tranquilizer gun in an activity related to the purpose
for which the license or permit was issued.
(bg) 1. Subsection (2) (a), (b), (c), and (d) does not apply to
a state employee or agent, or to a federal employee or agent, who
is acting within the scope of his or her employment or agency, who
is authorized by the department of natural resources to take animals
in the wild for the purpose of controlling the spread of disease
in animals and who is hunting in an area designated by the
department of natural resources as a chronic wasting disease eradication
zone, except that this subdivision does not authorize the
discharge of a firearm or the shooting of a bolt or arrow from a bow
or crossbow across a state trunk highway, county trunk highway,
or paved town highway.
1g. Subsection (2) (b) and (c) does not apply to a landowner,
a family member of the landowner, or an employee of the landowner
who is using a firearm, bow, or crossbow to shoot wild animals
from a farm tractor or an implement of husbandry on the
landowner’s land that is located in an area designated by the
department of natural resources as a chronic wasting disease eradication
zone.
94
95 Section 4. 941.23 of the statutes is repealed.
96 Section 5. 941.235 of the statutes is repealed.
97 Section 6. 941.237 of the statutes is repealed.
98 Section 7. 941.24 of the statutes is repealed.
99 Section 8. 939.22 (10) of the statutes is amended to read:
100 (10) “Dangerous weapon” means any loaded firearm;
101 any device designed as a weapon and capable
102 of producing death or great bodily harm; any ligature or other
103 instrumentality used on the throat, neck, nose, or mouth of another
104 person to impede, partially or completely, breathing or circulation
105 of blood; any electric weapon, as defined in s. 941.295 (4); or any
106 other device or instrumentality which, in the manner it is used or
107 intended to be used, is calculated or likely to produce death or
108 great bodily harm.
109 Section 9. 948.605 of the statues is repealed and recreated to read:
110 948.605 Firearms and school zones
111 (1) DEFINITIONS. In this section:
112 (a) “Firearm” does not include any beebee or pellet-firing gun that expels a projectile through the force of air pressure or any starter pistol.
113 (b) “School” has the meaning given in s. 948.61 (1)(b).
114 (c) “School zone” means in or on the grounds of a school.
115 (2) COMMISSION OF A CRIME IN A SCHOOL ZONE.
116 (a) Any individual who uses a firearm in commission of a crime in a school zone is guilty of a
117 Class I felony.
118 (3) Establishment of individual licensure.
119 In consideration that the right to keep and bear arms is protected and reserved to the people in
120 Article I, section 25, of the Wisconsin constitution and by the second amendment of the United
121 States constitution, a person who has not been convicted of a violent, felony crime and who is
122 lawfully able to own or to possess a firearm under the Wisconsin constitution is considered to
123 be individually licensed and verified by the state of Wisconsin within the meaning of the
124 Provisions regarding individual licensure and verification in the federal Gun-Free School Zones
125 Act.
126 Section 10. Xx.xx of the statues is created to read:
127 Xx.xx Home protection; use of deadly force; presumption of fear of death or great bodily harm.
128 (1) DEFINITIONS. In this section:
129 (a) “Dwelling” means a building or conveyance of any kind, including any attached porch,
130 whether the building or conveyance is temporary or permanent, mobile or immobile, which has
131 a roof over it, including a tent, and is designed to be occupied by people lodging therein at night.
132 (b) “Residence” means a dwelling in which a person resides either temporarily or permanently or is visiting as an invited guest.
133 (c) “Vehicle” is defined in 340.01(64)
134 (2) A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great
135 bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely
136 to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:
137 (a) The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and
138 forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, or occupied
139 vehicle, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against that
140 person’s will from the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle; and
141 (b) The person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and
142 forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred.
143 (3) The presumption set forth in subsection (1) does not apply if:
144 (a) The person against whom the defensive force is used has the right to be in or is a lawful
145 resident of the dwelling, residence, or vehicle, such as an owner, lessee, or titleholder, and there
146 is not an injunction for protection from domestic violence or a written pretrial supervision order
147 of no contact against that person; or
148 (b) The person or persons sought to be removed is a child or grandchild, or is otherwise in the
149 lawful custody or under the lawful guardianship of, the person against whom the defensive
150 force is used; or
151 (c) The person who uses defensive force is engaged in an unlawful activity or is using the
152 dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle to further an unlawful activity; or
153 (d) The person against whom the defensive force is used is a law enforcement officer who
154 enters or attempts to enter a dwelling, residence, or vehicle in the performance of his or her
155 official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law
156 or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person entering or
157 attempting to enter was a law enforcement officer.
158 (4) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place
159 where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her
160 ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is
161 necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to
162 prevent the commission of a forcible felony.
163 (5) A person who unlawfully and by force enters or attempts to enter a person’s dwelling,
164 residence, or occupied vehicle is presumed to be doing so with the intent to commit an unlawful
165 act involving force or violence.

yy.yy Requirements for signage indicating weapons
10 prohibitions; failure to post constitutes defense.
11 (a) All signs indicating a prohibition or restriction on
12 possessing or carrying handguns or other deadly weapons shall be
13 in the form prescribed by this section.
14 (b) A sign regulated by this section shall not be valid or
15 enforceable unless the sign:
16 (1) Expresses the prohibition in both written language
17 interdict and universal sign language;
18 (2) Is posted at every entrance into a building where any
19 person is prohibited or restricted from possessing or carrying a
20 weapon, including every separate entry door at any entrance
21 equipped with more than one door, and shall:
22 (A) Except as provided otherwise by paragraph (D) of this
23 subdivision, have an opaque white background; 515
1 (B) Be not less than 11 inches wide by 17 inches tall or,
2 if larger, in substantially similar proportions, except as
3 otherwise provided by paragraph (F) of this subdivision;
4 (C) Be bounded by a red rectangle not less than one-half of
5 an inch in width, whose corners may be squared or rounded, which
6 shall be surrounded on each side by not less than one-half of an
7 inch of the white background specified in paragraph (A) of this
8 subdivision;
9 (D) Contain at the top of the inside of the area bounded by
10 the rectangular border described in paragraph (C) of this
11 subdivision, in bold, opaque, white, underscored, uppercase, 72-
12 point or larger type, the word “WARNING”, centered between the
13 lateral edges of the rectangular border, imposed on an opaque
14 red background that shall extend not less than one-half of an
15 inch in each direction from the lettering and underscoring, with
16 at least one-half of an inch of the white background between
17 those letters and the rectangle or any other text or graphics;
18 (E) Contain immediately below the text described in
19 paragraph (D) of this subdivision, a graphic consisting of:
20 (i) A red circle with a red diagonal line that runs from
21 the upper left to the lower right at a 45 degree angle from the
22 horizontal, commonly known as the international “No” symbol,
23 which shall have circumference and diagonal line widths of not 516
1 less than one inch and an overall diameter equal to the width of
2 the sign minus two inches;
3 (ii) A black silhouette of a handgun inside the symbol
4 described in subparagraph (i) of this paragraph, which shall be
5 pointed facing right and, along its greatest dimension, occupy
6 at least 80 percent of the enclosed space within the symbol
7 described in subparagraph (i) of this paragraph; and
8 (iii) No text anywhere within the area beginning one inch
9 above the graphic and extending to one inch below the graphic;
10 (F) Contain below the graphic described in paragraph (E) of
11 this subdivision, in black 28-point or larger type, centered
12 between the lateral edges of the rectangular border described in
13 paragraph (B) of this subdivision, words indicating the nature
14 of the prohibition and any exemptions applicable thereto,
15 including the statement required by subsection (c) of this
16 section, and the name, physical street address and mailing
17 address of the person under whose authority the sign is posted
18 and, if available, that person’s telephone number, e-mail
19 address and Internet web site. If the headline text described in
20 paragraph (D) of this subdivision and the graphic described in
21 paragraph (E) of this subdivision leave inadequate space, the
22 sign’s vertical dimensions may be increased to accommodate the
23 requirements of this paragraph without increasing the width of 517
1 the sign or the size of the graphic described in paragraph (E)
2 of this subdivision;
3 (G) Be placed so that the base of the sign is not less than
4 40 inches nor more than 60 inches from the bottom of the
5 building’s entrance door; and
6 (H) Be posted in sufficient quantities to be clearly
7 visible and readable from a distance of at least 30 feet;
8 (3) If the designated premises does not have doors, the
9 signs required by this subsection shall:
10 (A) Except as provided otherwise by paragraph (D) of this
11 subdivision, have an opaque white background;
12 (B) Be not less than 36 inches wide by 48 inches tall or,
13 if larger, in substantially similar proportions, except as
14 otherwise provided by paragraph (F) of this subdivision;
15 (C) Be bounded by a red rectangle not less than one inch in
16 width, whose corners may be squared or rounded, which shall be
17 surrounded on each side by not less than one inch of the white
18 background specified in paragraph (A) of this subdivision;
19 (D) Contain at the top of the inside of the area bounded by
20 the rectangular border described in paragraph (C) of this
21 subdivision, in bold, opaque, white, underscored, uppercase type
22 not less than three inches tall, the word “WARNING”, centered
23 between the lateral edges of the rectangular border, imposed on
24 an opaque red background that shall extend not less than one 518
1 inch in each direction from the lettering and underscoring, with
2 at least one inch of the white background between those letters
3 and the rectangle or any other text or graphics;
4 (E) Contain immediately below the text described in
5 paragraph (D) of this subdivision, a graphic consisting of:
6 (i) A red circle with a red diagonal line that runs from
7 the upper left to the lower right at a 45 degree angle from the
8 horizontal, commonly known as the international “No” symbol,
9 which shall have circumference and diagonal line widths of not
10 less than two inches and an overall diameter equal to the width
11 of the sign minus two inches;
12 (ii) A black silhouette of a handgun inside the symbol
13 described in subparagraph (i) of this paragraph, which shall be
14 pointed facing right and, along its greatest dimension, occupy
15 at least 80 percent of the enclosed space within the symbol
16 described in subparagraph (i) of this paragraph; and
17 (iii) No text anywhere within the area beginning two inches
18 above the graphic and extending to two inches below the graphic;
19 (F) Contain below the graphic described in paragraph (E) of
20 this subdivision, in black one-inch tall or larger type,
21 centered between the lateral edges of the rectangular border
22 described in paragraph (B) of this subdivision, words indicating
23 the nature of the prohibition and any exemptions applicable
24 thereto, including the statement required by subsection (c) of 519
1 this section, and the name, physical street address and mailing
2 address of the person under whose authority the sign is posted
3 and, if available, that person’s telephone number, e-mail
4 address and Internet web site. If the headline text described in
5 paragraph (D) of this subdivision and the graphic described in
6 paragraph (E) of this subdivision leave inadequate space, the
7 sign’s vertical dimensions may be increased to accommodate the
8 requirements of this paragraph without increasing the width of
9 the sign or the size of the graphic described in paragraph (E)
10 of this subdivision;
11 (G) Be placed so that the base of the sign is not less than
12 40 inches nor more than 60 inches above the ground; and
13 (H) Be posted at every entry to the premises in sufficient
14 quantities to be clearly visible and readable from a distance of
15 at least 30 feet by any person entering the premises; and
16 (4) All text on any sign shall be in English or in
17 identical form in English and one or more other languages, at
18 the option of the person or entity responsible for posting the
19 sign.
20 (c) Any sign regulated by this section shall clearly and
21 expressly state whether persons licensed under section four or
22 five of this article to carry concealed weapons or authorized by
23 subsection (d), section three of this article, to carry a
24 concealed weapon without a license, are exempt from the520
1 indicated restriction or prohibition. For this purpose, the
2 words “concealed weapons license holders are not exempt,” in
3 which the word “not” is boldfaced and underscored, immediately
4 following the general explanation of the indicated restriction
5 or prohibition, shall be sufficient to effectively state that
6 persons licensed under section four or five of this article to
7 carry concealed weapons or authorized by subsection (d), section
8 three of this article, to carry a concealed weapon without a
9 license, are not exempt from the indicated restriction or
10 prohibition. Notwithstanding any provision of this code to the
11 contrary, the omission from any sign regulated by this section
12 of a clear and express statement that a person licensed under
13 section four or five of this article to carry concealed weapons
14 or authorized by subsection (d), section three of this article,
15 to carry a concealed weapon without a license, is not exempt
16 from the indicated restriction or prohibition, constitutes an
17 express exemption from the restriction or prohibition for
18 persons licensed under section four or five of this article to
19 carry concealed weapons or authorized by subsection (d), section
20 three of this article, to carry a concealed weapon without a
21 license.
22 (d) The requirements of this section are mandatory,
23 technical requirements with which any entity subject to this
24 section shall strictly comply. 521
1 (e) Except as specifically and expressly provided otherwise
2 by a more specific provision of this code, it is an exception to
3 any criminal offense under this code prohibiting or restricting
4 the possession or carrying of deadly weapons in specified
5 locations, a defense to any civil action for trespassing and a
6 bar to termination from public or private employment or any
7 other adverse action taken against a person by a property owner
8 resulting from an alleged violation of a restriction or
9 prohibition on carrying deadly weapons, that signage required to
10 be posted under this section was not properly posted. In any
11 criminal case, the state, or in any other context, the party
12 attempting to enforce the prohibition or restriction on the
13 possession or carrying of deadly weapons to which the signage
14 requirements of this section are applicable, has the burden of
15 negating the existence of the exception specified in the
16 preceding sentence.

 

[xd40arff]

Looks good to me.

 

[AaronS]

Looks good on my end also.

Let us know if you need any help, looks like I have some extra time on my hands.

 

[paul@paul-fisher.com]

Looks good on my end also.

Let us know if you need any help, looks like I have some extra time on my hands.

Hey, the more the merrier!

We can either meet up and all hit our government officials together or just individually give it to them. I guess my point is we need to be consistent in our message and coordinate who has been 'talked' to so that we can make sure everyone is it. It is just my personal opinion that an in person visit is more 'effective' than purely an email. Of course, even an email is better than no contact.

 

[oak1971]

Hey, the more the merrier!

We can either meet up and all hit our government officials together or just individually give it to them. I guess my point is we need to be consistent in our message and coordinate who has been 'talked' to so that we can make sure everyone is it. It is just my personal opinion that an in person visit is more 'effective' than purely an email. Of course, even an email is better than no contact.

Good job Paul! When are you heading out there?

 

[paul@paul-fisher.com]

Good job Paul! When are you heading out there?

Brass did 99% of the work.

I am planning on going Thursday. Depends on this weather.

 

[oak1971]

Brass did 99% of the work.

I am planning on going Thursday. Depends on this weather.

I'd go with, you but that day is kind of filled already. Stay safe and warm.

Thanks to all for putting it together.

 

[Flipper]

At some point in time it would be good to have a source list of other state laws with similar language for the LRB to reference.

Can the draft be posted as a sticky so that it can printed up/emailed as needed?

 

[Brass Magnet]

Swamped

Hey guys,
I'm glad you are still coming up with ideas and tweaking things. I've been swamped at work and haven't had any time to come on the forum or much to myself for that matter. I've got appointments and meetings this week and next and will be heading off for the far east again next week.

So, I'm going to have to hand off the completion of this bill to you guys. I'm sure it's in capable hands. Davegran posted a nice link to bill formatting early in the thread and you can always look at one of the current bills for a template as well. I would only make two requests.

1. That you try to be as uncompromising as possible (obviously within reason).
2. That you try to use the simplest means to get what we want.

I'd like to leave you with another version of 167.31 that you may consider. It was PM'd to me by another member here so I won't give out who but if he'd like, he can certainly attribute his name to it.

167.31 Safe use and transportation of firearms and
bows.
(4) EXCEPTIONS. (a) Subsections (2) and (3) do not apply to
any of the following who place, possess, transport,
load or discharge a firearm in, on or from a vehicle, motorboat
or aircraft or discharge a firearm from or across a highway or
within 50 feet of the center of a roadway:
1. A private citizen who meets all of the following:
a. At least 18 years of age
b. Never convicted of a felony in this state or in another state of a crime that would be a felony if committed in this state
c. Never judged mentally incompetent in a court of law.
d. Never convicted of a crime of domestic violence.
e. Never convicted of habitual substance abuse (3 occassions).
f. Never convicted of stalking.
g. Not declared a sexual predator.

1.1. paragraph 1 above does not apply to any person arrested in the process of shooting at or killing of state wildlife.


2. A member of the U.S. armed forces.
3. A member of the national guard.
4. A private security person who meets all of the following
requirements:
a. He or she holds either a private detective license issued
under s. 440.26 (2) (a) 2. or a private security permit issued under
s. 440.26 (5).
b. He or she holds a certificate of proficiency to carry a firearm
issued by the department of regulation and licensing.
c. He or she is performing his or her assigned duties or responsibilities.
d. He or she is wearing a uniform that clearly identifies him
or her as a private security person.
e. His or her firearm is in plain view, as defined by rule by the
department of regulation and licensing.
(am) 1. Subsections (2) (a), (c) and (d) and (3) (a) and (b) do
not apply to a peace officer who, in the line of duty, loads or discharges
a firearm in, on or from a vehicle, motorboat or aircraft or
discharges a firearm from or across a highway or within 50 feet of
the center of a roadway.
2. Subsection (2) (b) does not apply to a peace officer who
places, possesses or transports a firearm in or on a vehicle, motorboat
or aircraft while in the line of duty.
(b) Subsections (2) (a), (b) and (c), (3) (a) and (b), and (3m) do
not apply to the holder of a scientific research license under s.
169.25 or a scientific collector permit under s. 29.614 who is using
a net gun or tranquilizer gun in an activity related to the purpose
for which the license or permit was issued.
(bg) 1. Subsection (2) (a), (b), (c), and (d) does not apply to
a state employee or agent, or to a federal employee or agent, who
is acting within the scope of his or her employment or agency, who
is authorized by the department of natural resources to take animals
in the wild for the purpose of controlling the spread of disease
in animals and who is hunting in an area designated by the
department of natural resources as a chronic wasting disease eradication
zone, except that this subdivision does not authorize the
discharge of a firearm or the shooting of a bolt or arrow from a bow
or crossbow across a state trunk highway, county trunk highway,
or paved town highway.
1g. Subsection (2) (b) and (c) does not apply to a landowner,
a family member of the landowner, or an employee of the landowner
who is using a firearm, bow, or crossbow to shoot wild animals
from a farm tractor or an implement of husbandry on the
landowner’s land that is located in an area designated by the
department of natural resources as a chronic wasting disease eradication
zone.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Actions:

1. Deleted phrase --in the line of duty,-- from paragraaph 167.31(4)
2. Added paragraphs 1 and 1.1
3. Removed paragraph 3. which read: Subsection(2)(b) does not apply to a person employeed as a peace officer who places, possesses, or transports a firearm in or on a vehicle while traveling in the vehicle from his or her residence to his or her place of employment as a peace officer.

Personally, I'm still having a hard time with the mess that is 167.31 so maybe you guys can make the final push.

Brass

 

[Flipper]

Looks great, but one major thing I would like to see is protection from lawsuits from the families of the person you legally shot in self defense.

Should be part of separate "stand your ground" legislation. Keep the carry bill as simple as possible, less for the anti's to grab on to.

 

[paul@paul-fisher.com]

Don't line 126-165 basically do this?

 

[Captain Nemo]

167.31

Paul:

Definitions should be consistent and use the 340.01 statute Words and Phrases Defined definition when possible.

Definition of vehicle is in two places, line 16(k) and 133(c). The definitions are distinctly different. Would be best to just reference 340.01(74) for the definition.

Definition of street should reference 340.01(64) so as to not confuse it with the definition of highway.

Statutes 931.23, 931,235, 931.237 and 931.24 should be 941.23, 941.235, 941.237, and 941.24.

In the signage section why the reference to "license to conceal carry"? Appears in a few places. Are you meaning to imply that we will condascend to licensed conceal carry?

I agree with Fliper that simple is better. I too, think the stand your ground information should be separate legislation. It is bound to get into many legal and liability issues not related to the manner of firearm posession per se. It could end up muddying the waters if combined with this proposal. I certainly think we should be involved with it but under separate cover. I also think that here is a very high probability that "Castle Doctrine" legislation will pass this session. It failed last session because of political shenanigans.

I am the mystery member that wrote the PM to Brass concerning 167.31. He posted my recommended modification earlier. Let me explain a little about it and why I wrote it as such.

167.31 is a mess. It was enacted as ACT 36 in 1985 to serve as a game management tool for the DNR. Since it has morphed into a public safety item and a requirements for qualification of security guards. It is now far removed fromit's original motive. Brass has looked at 167.31 very intently as have Dave Gran, myself, phred, you and others. You can read the frustration in Brass's writing in regards to trying to fis the statute. I'm afraid fixing the statue beyond the capability of any of us. The only adequate "fix' would be repeal and that "ain't gonna happen", trust me on that.

I have been prompting change of 167.31 for years (2006). I have discussed it with the head legal person at the DNR, law enforcement individals, Wisconsin Chiefs of Police Asociation, Wisconsin Sheriffs and Deputy Sheriffs Association, Various legislators and the Attorney General Office. All of them have an interest in 167.31 as do we. I have read, re-read and read again dozens of times 167.31. Even tried to re-write it which was a lesson in frustration. Recently the light came on. The only part of 167.31 that really impacts our cause is 167.31(2)(b) and 167.31(2)(c). Why not just write an exception to those paragraphs for those of us that wish to vehicle carry for personal protection? Turns out that 167.31 contains a paragraph expessly for that purpose. Paragraph (4). Something I had read over dozens of times and not recognized as significant. It dawned on me that we can satisfy our needs by adding them as exceptons to the reach of the above paragraphs, therefore avoiding the "dog fight" repeal or massive re-write would foster. Essentially all my recommended modification affects in 167.31 is it eliminates paragraph 3 of the existing statute and modifies the pramble of paragraph (4) EXCEPTIONS and adds our exception to paragraph (4). The rest of the statute is left intact for someone smarter than I to untangle. Brass posted the suggested modification earlier.


I think the suggested moification would have a better than even chance of surviving law enforcement, DNR and legislative scrutiny. Simply because there is something in it for all interested.

Law Enforcement: LE has for sometime been trying to change 167.31. Technically as written it is a problem to it. Even though a peace officer can carry a concealed weapon at all times when off duty it must be carried unloaded in a vehicle. Also a peace officer can only carry a visible weapon in a vehicle if on duty or going to or from work. An off duty officer must comply with the statute just as we. The modification would allow a peace officer to carry concealed or visible at all times.

Legislature: The legislature concern is "we don't want every Tom, Dick and Harry running around with loaded firearms in their cars". "We have to be concerned with the public welfare." The modification addresses that issue by specifying those persons excluded from the exception. Only people of good character carrying a firearm for a lawful purpose are protected from the statute.

DNR: 167.31 is largely left intact for the DNR wildlife management purposes. Paragraph 1.1of the modification gives the DNR authority to invoke 167.31(2)(b) and (c) any time the illegal hunting of wildlife is encountered.

Attorney General Office: The AG does not have to get caught up in the distinction between concealment and encasement, especially if "out of reach" on certain vehicles becomes an issue.

We: Our interests are satisfied because any law abiding citizen that satisfies the requirements of paragraph 1 of the EXCEPTIONS paragraph (4). is exempt from the restrictions in 167.31(2)(b) and (c). The carry of a loaded and visible firearm in or on a vehicle for any lawful purpose would be lawful.

 

[paul@paul-fisher.com]

....lots of good info

OK. I have been struggling, as most of you have, with 167.31 as well. As usual, the simplest is the best. I am working on fixing the format but I took your suggestion that we just replace 167.31(4) with what you wrote. Still a flippin mess but we get what we want.

I fixed the typo on the 931/941 transposition and referenced the other definition of vehicle.

I am still working on the 'big ugly sign' part. I had 'borrowed' it from WV. So, I will extract the 'permit' language.

I also think the 'stand your ground' stuff needs to be a separate issue.

 

[Russf]

(4) EXCEPTIONS. (a) Subsections (2) and (3) do not apply to
any of the following who place, possess, transport,
load or discharge a firearm in, on or from a vehicle, motorboat
or aircraft or discharge a firearm from or across a highway or
within 50 feet of the center of a roadway:

Im not sure about this; if this states no loading of firearm or discharge of firearm from a motorboat then how can I go duck hunting. we have to shoot and load firearms in a motorboat. Am I missing something here? or did I read this section wrong?

 

[paul@paul-fisher.com]

How's this?

An Act to repeal 23.33 (3)(e), 29.089, (2), 941.23, 941.235, 941.237, 941.24; to amend 939.22(10), to repeal and recreate 948.605, 167.31(4) and to create xx.xx of the statues; relating to: the common law right and the Wisconsin and United States constitutionally recognized rights to carry and use a weapon for self defense.
LRB Analysis

The people of the state of Wisconsin, represented in the senate and assemble, do enact as follows.
Section 1. 23.33 (3)(e) of the statutes is repealed.
Section 2. 29.089 (2) of the statutes is repealed.
Section 3. 167.31(4) of the statutes is repealed and recreated to read:
167.314(4)EXCEPTIONS. (a) Subsections (2) and (3) do not apply to any of the following who place, possess, transport, load or discharge a firearm in, on or from a vehicle, motorboat or aircraft or discharge a firearm from or across a highway or within 50 feet of the center of a roadway:
1. A private citizen who meets all of the following:
a. At least 18 years of age
b. Never convicted of a felony in this state or in another state of a crime that would be a felony if committed in this state
c. Never judged mentally incompetent in a court of law.
d. Never convicted of a crime of domestic violence.
e. Never convicted of habitual substance abuse (3 occasions).
f. Never convicted of stalking.
g. Not declared a sexual predator.
1.1. paragraph 1 above does not apply to any person arrested in the process of shooting at or killing of state wildlife.
2. A member of the U.S. armed forces.
3. A member of the national guard.
4. A private security person who meets all of the following
requirements:
a. He or she holds either a private detective license issued
under s. 440.26 (2) (a) 2. or a private security permit issued under
s. 440.26 (5).
b. He or she holds a certificate of proficiency to carry a firearm
issued by the department of regulation and licensing.
c. He or she is performing his or her assigned duties or responsibilities.
d. He or she is wearing a uniform that clearly identifies him
or her as a private security person.
e. His or her firearm is in plain view, as defined by rule by the
department of regulation and licensing.
(am) 1. Subsections (2) (a), (c) and (d) and (3) (a) and (b) do
not apply to a peace officer who, in the line of duty, loads or discharges
a firearm in, on or from a vehicle, motorboat or aircraft or
discharges a firearm from or across a highway or within 50 feet of
the center of a roadway.
2. Subsection (2) (b) does not apply to a peace officer who
places, possesses or transports a firearm in or on a vehicle, motorboat
or aircraft while in the line of duty.
(b) Subsections (2) (a), (b) and (c), (3) (a) and (b), and (3m) do
not apply to the holder of a scientific research license under s.
169.25 or a scientific collector permit under s. 29.614 who is using
a net gun or tranquilizer gun in an activity related to the purpose
for which the license or permit was issued.
(bg) 1. Subsection (2) (a), (b), (c), and (d) does not apply to
a state employee or agent, or to a federal employee or agent, who
is acting within the scope of his or her employment or agency, who
is authorized by the department of natural resources to take animals
in the wild for the purpose of controlling the spread of disease
in animals and who is hunting in an area designated by the
department of natural resources as a chronic wasting disease eradication
zone, except that this subdivision does not authorize the
discharge of a firearm or the shooting of a bolt or arrow from a bow
or crossbow across a state trunk highway, county trunk highway,
or paved town highway.
1g. Subsection (2) (b) and (c) does not apply to a landowner,
a family member of the landowner, or an employee of the landowner
who is using a firearm, bow, or crossbow to shoot wild animals
from a farm tractor or an implement of husbandry on the
landowner’s land that is located in an area designated by the
department of natural resources as a chronic wasting disease eradication
zone.
Section 4. 941.23 of the statutes is repealed.
Section 5. 941.235 of the statutes is repealed.
Section 6. 941.237 of the statutes is repealed.
Section 7. 941.24 of the statutes is repealed.
Section 8. 939.22 (10) of the statutes is amended to read:
(10) “Dangerous weapon” means any loaded firearm; any device designed as a weapon and capable
of producing death or great bodily harm; any ligature or other instrumentality used on the throat, neck, nose, or mouth of another person to impede, partially or completely, breathing or circulation of blood; any electric weapon, as defined in s. 941.295 (4); or any other device or instrumentality which, in the manner it is used or intended to be used, is calculated or likely to produce death or great bodily harm.
Section 9. 948.605 of the statues is repealed and recreated to read:
948.605 Firearms and school zones
(1) DEFINITIONS. In this section:
(a) “Firearm” does not include any beebee or pellet-firing gun that expels a projectile through the force of air pressure or any starter pistol.
(b) “School” has the meaning given in s. 948.61 (1)(b).
(c) “School zone” means in or on the grounds of a school.
(2) COMMISSION OF A CRIME IN A SCHOOL ZONE.
(a) Any individual who uses a firearm in commission of a crime in a school zone is guilty of a Class I felony.
(3) Establishment of individual licensure.
In consideration that the right to keep and bear arms is protected and reserved to the people in Article I, section 25, of the Wisconsin constitution and by the second amendment of the United States constitution, a person who has not been convicted of a violent, felony crime and who is lawfully able to own or to possess a firearm under the Wisconsin constitution is considered to be individually licensed and verified by the state of Wisconsin within the meaning of the Provisions regarding individual licensure and verification in the federal Gun-Free School Zones Act.
Section 10. Xx.xx of the statute is created to read:
Xx.xx Home protection; use of deadly force; presumption of fear of death or great bodily harm.
(1) DEFINITIONS. In this section:
(a) “Dwelling” means a building or conveyance of any kind, including any attached porch, whether the building or conveyance is temporary or permanent, mobile or immobile, which has a roof over it, including a tent, and is designed to be occupied by people lodging therein at night.
(b) “Residence” means a dwelling in which a person resides either temporarily or permanently or is visiting as an invited guest.
(c) “Vehicle” has the meaning given in s. 340.01(74)
(2) A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:
(a) The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against that person’s will from the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle; and
(b) The person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred.
(3) The presumption set forth in subsection (1) does not apply if:
(a) The person against whom the defensive force is used has the right to be in or is a lawful resident of the dwelling, residence, or vehicle, such as an owner, lessee, or titleholder, and there is not an injunction for protection from domestic violence or a written pretrial supervision order of no contact against that person; or
(b) The person or persons sought to be removed is a child or grandchild, or is otherwise in the lawful custody or under the lawful guardianship of, the person against whom the defensive force is used; or
(c) The person who uses defensive force is engaged in an unlawful activity or is using the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle to further an unlawful activity; or
(d) The person against whom the defensive force is used is a law enforcement officer who enters or attempts to enter a dwelling, residence, or vehicle in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person entering or attempting to enter was a law enforcement officer.
(4) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.
(5) A person who unlawfully and by force enters or attempts to enter a person’s dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle is presumed to be doing so with the intent to commit an unlawful act involving force or violence.

I believe I have covered everything. Fixed 167.31 the Captain's way, fixed definition of vehicle, removed 'permit' wording for 'big ugly sign', fixed typos and formatting.