Moving to Alabama (Auburn)

[Kingfish]

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So, my wife is getting her advanced degree from Auburn University. We will be moving down there for at least 2.5 years.

So, here are a few questions:

1) Is there a county close to Lee county that allows open carry? I know it is absolutely legal in Alabama to OC but I also know that the Lee county permit prohibits OC and I have no interest in getting arrested or loosing my permit.

2) Any good ranges in the Auburn area? Would like to find a good indoor and a good outdoor. Would like also a range that I can practice draw and fire drills.

3) How concealed do you think I need to keep my gun? I carry a Taurus 24/7 (full size striker fired). I have a good leather IWB holster but wondering if I still need a cover garment other than a t-shirt.

4) Is there an Alabama specific gun forum or activist group? The Alabama laws MUST CHANGE.

5) I live in Tennessee and have a Tennessee resident permit. As soon as I move into a house in Alabama, will my TN permit be immediately void or not honored in Alabama until I get my AL permit?

6) What justification should I list on my permit application?

7) Any other advice on a Tennessean who has become used to Open Carrying moving to Alabama?

 

[Comp-tech]

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kingfish wrote:

So, my wife is getting her advanced degree from Auburn University. We will be moving down there for at least 2.5 years.

So, here are a few questions:

1) Is there a county close to Lee county that allows open carry? I know it is absolutely legal in Alabama to OC but I also know that the Lee county permit prohibits OC and I have no interest in getting arrested or loosing my permit.
There are NO counties that permit OC that I'm aware of....I think they get a "form" type permit blank from somwhere.....most are the same.

2) Any good ranges in the Auburn area? Would like to find a good indoor and a good outdoor. Would like also a range that I can practice draw and fire drills.
I'm not familiar with the area as to available ranges.....there are public (outdoor) ranges all over the state, pop me an email and I can send you a PDF listing of all of them..... tech at pcbypass dot com

3) How concealed do you think I need to keep my gun? I carry a Taurus 24/7 (full size striker fired). I have a good leather IWB holster but wondering if I still need a cover garment other than a t-shirt.
I CC a Sigma with just a t-shirt......just make sure it's loose enough that you don't "print" and that it's long enough to keep it covered.

4) Is there an Alabama specific gun forum or activist group? The Alabama laws MUST CHANGE.
I agree 100%.....for now, I would settle for LEOs honoring the laws as they are...not hassle us for legal OC etc.....are you interested in being "involved" in any type of activist group while you're here?

5) I live in Tennessee and have a Tennessee resident permit. As soon as I move into a house in Alabama, will my TN permit be immediately void or not honored in Alabama until I get my AL permit?
Not 100% sure...I'm no lawyer but, I'd say your safe (at least) untill you change over your DL to Alabama....... IIRC, you have 30 days after you establish residency but, I've seen students from UoA stay here for much longer keeping their home state plates and DL....?there may be an exmption for sudents?

6) What justification should I list on my permit application?
Personal protection is all I've ever used.

7) Any other advice on a Tennessean who has become used to Open Carrying moving to Alabama?
No real advice....just hope you enjoy your time here....stay safe!

 

[Kingfish]

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Comp-tech wrote

2) Any good ranges in the Auburn area? Would like to find a good indoor and a good outdoor. Would like also a range that I can practice draw and fire drills.
I'm not familiar with the area as to available ranges.....there are public (outdoor) ranges all over the state, pop me an email and I can send you a PDF listing of all of them..... tech at pcbypass dot com
DONE

4) Is there an Alabama specific gun forum or activist group? The Alabama laws MUST CHANGE.
I agree 100%.....for now, I would settle for LEOs honoring the laws as they are...not hassle us for legal OC etc.....are you interested in being "involved" in any type of activist group while you're here?
Absolutely!...But I am not getting arrested.

 

[kurtmax_0]

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Comp-Tech has good answers.. I'll say a bit more.

1. No counties in Alabama 'allow' open carry. It may say on the permit that you can't. I need to find the AG opinion, but in one of them he stated exactly what a "qualified license" was (as opposed to an unrestricted). Qualified only meant prohibiting locations a person can carry really. Also, the laws in Alabama are kind of sketchy involving this. My interpretation of the laws is that it's only legal to OC on your own property (duh ) and public property. Other private property is a big no; pistol permit or not (in fact, as the law seems to read, you can't carry on other private property concealed with a permit either :/). Obviously this severely restricts OC. Bottom line: Don't do it. (Or I wouldn't do it anyway, too much of a gray area) Btw, the OC restrictions are for pistols only.... there are hardly any restrictions on rifles and shotguns in Alabama.

2. I don't know of any good ranges in the Auburn area. I normally drive to Columbus (In Georgia).

3. I wouldn't worry about it. I see people printing quite often. Of course, I generally look for that sort of stuff sooooo....

4. This is it

5. I have no clue.

6. 'Because I want one'

7. Don't carry on campus if you are attending there. Pistol permits are public record in Alabama (need to quote another AG Op here ). I wouldn't put it past Auburn University to start searching everybody with permits. It's not illegal to carry on campus, it will just get you expelled very fast. That said, Auburn University is probably a very insecure place. In the two years I've attended, I've only seen police two or three times (not including bomb threat responses). The University recently shut down their own department and now uses the Auburn PD. Let's just say I always walk to my car with a fairly large group of other people (Uni student here.. gotta stay up till 0400 you know And yes, I'm a nerd, I'm on campus on Friday nights most of the time :/)

One more note. The Auburn PD officers seem to, in general, be young and er... uninformed. I would probably test OC in another county than Lee if I had the choice. The few times I saw officers on campus was when they came to escort somebody off campus because they weren't speaking in the 'free speech zone'. (That's a whooooollleeeeee 'nother story...)

Anyways, I don't have quotes atm because I'm currently doing a complete overhaul of my office here. I'm about to format the drive in a few minutes from now.... I'll see if I can add them in a day or so.

 

[Comp-tech]

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kingfish wrote:

Comp-tech wrote

2) Any good ranges in the Auburn area? Would like to find a good indoor and a good outdoor. Would like also a range that I can practice draw and fire drills.
I'm not familiar with the area as to available ranges.....there are public (outdoor) ranges all over the state, pop me an email and I can send you a PDF listing of all of them..... tech at pcbypass dot com
DONE

4) Is there an Alabama specific gun forum or activist group? The Alabama laws MUST CHANGE.
I agree 100%.....for now, I would settle for LEOs honoring the laws as they are...not hassle us for legal OC etc.....are you interested in being "involved" in any type of activist group while you're here?
Absolutely!...But I am not getting arrested.

kingfish......you should have that PDF...hope you find someplace close to shoot.
I'm compiling information right now to try and put together some type of training bulletin....see how it's recieved by LEO, DA, etc....once done, I'll send a copy your way.
BTW, I don't plan on getting arrested either.....if I can help it

 

[Kingfish]

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Great info guys.

Another question:


8) Posted locations. I cannot find anything in the laws about posted locations. What is one to do if they have a no weapons sign?

 

[Comp-tech]

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kingfish wrote:

Great info guys.

Another question:


8) Posted locations. I cannot find anything in the laws about posted locations. What is one to do if they have a no weapons sign?

I haven't found anything on that either......I most always honor their wishes by taking my business elsewhere.
I hardly ever see those around here....but that may change if we can get LEOs educated about OC.

 

[tekwiz]

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kingfish:

I'm a college student here at Auburn. My friend and I both have Alabama CCW permits and carry (concealed) just about everywhere.

First, about the law: There is no law in Alabama saying that you can't open carry. Also, all regulation is left to the state's jurisdiction regarding the carry and use of firearms (ie. local jurisdictions can't make a law, or even a city employee policy, restricting firearms)

An excellent overview of Alabama firearm laws is at

http://www.packing.org/state/alabama/

I'm currently testing the waters carrying in the open. I regularly go around the vicinity of my apartment complex carring in the open, and I've never been stopped by an officer. However, I still believe it to be smarter to carry concealed, so I do just about everywhere else.

That all said, the law enforcement in Alabama are that well educated on the laws about firearms, so beware. I keep copies of certain articles of the Code of Alabama and certain A.G. opinions in my apartment and in my car and I keep their codes in my wallet, just in case.

Now to your specific questions:
1) The permit reading is not law and is not a contract, and it has actually been questioned by the A.G., but nothing was ever changed. However, you concern about loosing your permit is a valid one because in Alabama, permits are at the complete discretion of the Sherrif, and, to my knowledge, a revocation has never been successfully challenged in court.

2) I don't know of any indoor ranges in Lee county at all. However, my friend and I regularly go to Chewacla State Park (15-20 min. from the University) and we practice draw/fire drill, and when it's safe (ie. we're the only one's there) we move forward and do some tactical drills. A day pass is $3, an annual pass is $30 (I will be getting an annual next week).

3) I tend to conceal as much as possible (I carry a S&W Airweight). I go by the philosophy that if it isn't seen, I have the advange when an attacker doesn't realize I'm armed. Now, if I go make a bank dropoff at night, I carry open.

4) To my knowlege, there is no large activist group; however, my friend and I are trying to get support to force Auburn University to change it's no firearms policy (not even legal CCW) as apart of ConcealedCampus.org.

5) Residency is tricky, so I have no clue. Call the Lee county sherriff's dept.

http://www.leecountysheriff.org/

6) I simply put "personal defense"

7) Pray... Hard.

8) Posted Locations: Nothing is said about it, so refer to Code of AL 13A-11-52

Except as otherwise provided in this article, no person shall carry a pistol about his person on premises not his own or under his control; but this section shall not apply to any sheriff or his deputy or police officer of an incorporated town or city in the lawful discharge of the duties of his office, or to United States marshal or his deputies, rural free delivery mail carriers in the discharge of their duties as such, bonded constables in the discharge of their duties as such, conductors, railway mail clerks and express messengers in the discharge of their duties.

So my general rule of thumb is to carry until asked not to.

 

[Kingfish]

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tekwiz wrote:

kingfish:



First, about the law: There is no law in Alabama saying that you can't open carry. Also, all regulation is left to the state's jurisdiction regarding the carry and use of firearms (ie. local jurisdictions can't make a law, or even a city employee policy, restricting firearms)

Yes, I understand. As I said..."I know it is absolutely legal in Alabama to OC but..." It just makes no sence to me that local LE does not get it.

2) I don't know of any indoor ranges in Lee county at all. However, my friend and I regularly go to Chewacla State Park (15-20 min. from the University) and we practice draw/fire drill, and when it's safe (ie. we're the only one's there) we move forward and do some tactical drills. A day pass is $3, an annual pass is $30 (I will be getting an annual next week).

I don't see anything on the park's website about a firing range. Do you have any more info? Did you mean [font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][size="-1"]Uchee Shooting Range in Tuskegee National Forrest?[/size][/font]

5) Residency is tricky, so I have no clue. Call the Lee county sherriff's dept.

I will thanks.

So my general rule of thumb is to carry until asked not to.

Sounds like a plan.

 

[tekwiz]

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Sorry, wrong park, it is the one in Tuskegee.

 

[kurtmax_0]

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Are you the tekwiz tekwiz... or some other tekwiz? IE, the tekwiz tekwiz that knows who the kurtmax_0 kurtmax_0 is and not some other kurtmax_0 and some other tekwiz....

I'd also like to stress again, that is is illegal to OC a pistol on private property not under your control. The grounds outside your apartment might be a gray area though. Read some of the other threads in this forum for the cases.

 

[Comp-tech]

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kurtmax_0 wrote:

Are you the tekwiz tekwiz... or some other tekwiz? IE, the tekwiz tekwiz that knows who the kurtmax_0 kurtmax_0 is and not some other kurtmax_0 and some other tekwiz....

I'd also like to stress again, that is is illegal to OC a pistol on private property not under your control. The grounds outside your apartment might be a gray area though. Read some of the other threads in this forum for the cases.

[align=left][font="Bitstream Vera Serif, serif"]Looney v. State, 41 Al. App. 582 (1962)[/font][/align] [align=left]
[/align] [align=left] [font="Bitstream Vera Serif, serif"]Looney demurred [my note - this is a motion to dismiss] on the ground that the complaint did not state a violation of any law.

Code 1940, T. 14, § 175, as amended, makes it an offense for a person who has no license therefor (except on his land, abode or place of business):

1) to carry a pistol in any vehicle; or

2) to carry a pistol concealed on or about his person.

Thus, a permit is not required when a person afoot carries an unconcealed pistol.

This analysis comports with an Attorney General's opinion by then Assistant Attorney General Gallion on this statute before the 1956 amendment which transplanted the word ‘concealed’ from being immediately before ‘in any vehicle’ to its present place in the section. There it is said:

‘a person may carry an unconcealed and unlicensed pistol anywhere, either on his own property, on the public highways, public property or the land of another person without violating either Section 163, supra, or Section 175, as amended, supra, * * *’-Quarterly Reports of Attorney General, Vol. 79, p. 31, 35.[/font][/align]

 

[Comp-tech]

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tekwiz wrote:

all regulation is left to the state's jurisdiction regarding the carry and use of firearms (ie. local jurisdictions can't make a law, or even a city employee policy, restricting firearms)
Yet sherrifs in many counties add restrictions to permits....unlawfully IMHO

However, you concern about loosing your permit is a valid one because in Alabama, permits are at the complete discretion of the Sherrif

That's a bit of an overstatement...he still has to abide by the same laws as we do and therefore must have a valid reason to refuse or revoke

all regulation is left to the state's jurisdiction & complete discretion of the Sherrif......these two seem to be in conflict

BTW, use EXTREME caution when using Packing.org...their info is NOT kept current

 

[kurtmax_0]

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I'll double check comp, but afaik a later court decided that the looney case was wrong....

Of course, I could just be retarded :/

Ah found it:

K.J. v. State (1997)

"The appellant first contends that the court erred in adjudicating him delinquent under § 13A-11-52 because, he says, this Code section is no longer the law. Specifically, the appellant asserts that § 13A-11-52 was repealed or superseded by § 13A-11-73, Code of Alabama 1975.

...

This Court is cognizant of the fact that the court's holding in Stinson seems to infer that the precursor to § 13A-11-52 was repealed by the enactment of the Uniform Firearms Act; however, the legislative history of the current § 13A-11-52 shows that the Legislature re-codified that section on two separate occasions following this Court's holding in Stinson, in 1940 and 1975. "It is a fundamental principle of statutory construction that in enacting [a] statute the[**4] legislature had full knowledge and information as to prior and existing law and legislation on the subject of the statute." Miller v. State, 349 So. 2d 129, 131 (Ala. Cr. App. 1977). We hold that § 13A-11-52 is still in effect as evidenced by the following cases where defendants were charged under this section: C.D.J. v. State, 671 So. 2d 139 (Ala. Cr. App. 1995), and A.M. v. State, 623 So. 2d 421 (Ala. Cr. App. 1993)."


This does seem a bit odd to me, that prior cases are considered moot just because the legislature recodified the law and just copied everything over into the new law. I mean, nobody even reads the law ever before passing it.... but still I guess that is what happens.

 

[Comp-tech]

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Looney was OC and was charged with.......key here is concealed

Code 1940, T. 14, § 161, reads:
‘Except as otherwise provided in this chapter, a person who carries concealed about his person a bowie knife or knife or instrument of like kind or description or a pistol or firearm of any other kind or an air gun shall on conviction be fined not less than fifty, nor more than five hundred dollars, and may also be imprisoned in the county jail, or sentenced to hard labor for the county, for not more than six months

*** Horace Looney, did carry or have on his person a gun, pistol, or bowie knife or like instrument without a lawful permit to carry the same, * * *

Below, from K.J. v. State (1997), we see that while sec 52 IS still in effect, it must be applied only to the extent that it is consistent with sec 73.....K.J. was CC not OC

Furthermore, in Morris v. State, 342 So.2d 417, 418 (Ala.Cr.App.1977), and Looney v. State, 41 Ala.App. 582, 141 So.2d 535, 536 (1962)§ 13A-11-73 does not prohibit carrying an unlicensed pistol if the pistol is unconcealed and the person is on foot. "Based on the phrase '[e]xcept as otherwise provided in this article' and this court's reasoning in Braxton, we hold that § 13A-11-73 is the correct charge for possession of an unlicensed pistol. Section 13A-11-52 applies only the extent that it is consistent with § 13A-11-73 because it is 'the later statute and a complete revision of the subject matter.' Braxton, 350 So.2d at 755. Therefore, the state should have been required § 13A-11-73. This court has repeatedly held that the state must prove that the defendant was not issued a pistol license by the sheriff of the defendant's county of residence.

Sorry kurt....I may be the "retard" here , but I fail to see how K.J. stated Looney was wrong....it seems to back it up IMHO

 

[kurtmax_0]

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Hrrmmm. K.J. v. State is all kinds of confusing. In the beginning, the defendent is said to be charged with 52... with no mention of him carrying concealed. The court goes on to say that 52 is still part of the law. Then it goes on to say that he was carrying concealed and that being charged with 52 is okay if you don't have a license to carry concealed.

Why not just say: Charge him with 73, not 52. Alot less confusing...

 

[tekwiz]

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Yup, I am the tekwiz tekwiz!!

 

[tekwiz]

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all regulation is left to the state's jurisdiction regarding the carry and use of firearms (ie. local jurisdictions can't make a law, or even a city employee policy, restricting firearms)

Yet sherrifs in many counties add restrictions to permits....unlawfully IMHO

However, you concern about loosing your permit is a valid one because in Alabama, permits are at the complete discretion of the Sherrif

That's a bit of an overstatement...he still has to abide by the same laws as we do and therefore must have a valid reason to refuse or revoke

All his reason can be is simply: "He is irresponsible" There are no laws saying what a "valid" reason is, so just be careful. The check and balance that we have is that Sherriffs are elected.

 

[kurtmax_0]

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Alright, I found the AG opinion about a qualified license:

1981-44:

"As Sheriff you may also issue a qualified pistol permit. You may limit the permit to a particular pistol or pistols by including the serial numbers of those weapons on the permit. You may also limit when or where a person may have a pistol in his possession"

Now, I don't know how well this holds up tbh. Since a pistol permit is only for concealed pistols and carrying in vehicles, how the Sheriff can say where you can have a pistol, concealed or unconcealed, makes no sense. Also, I don't see where the "one pistol only thing" mentioned earlier in the opinion.

All in all it sounds rather fishy....

 

[Comp-tech]

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tekwiz wrote:

All his reason can be is simply: "He is irresponsible" There are no laws saying what a "valid" reason is, so just be careful. The check and balance that we have is that Sherriffs are elected.

That's not quite true.....he may have "wide descretion" but there are still rules.....from AGO 2003-230
Honorable David T

The Sheriff may, how­ever, grant or deny a permit based on the suitability standard set forth in the section 13A-11-75 of the code of Alabama

From AGO 2000-163

Honorable Jim Woodward

The sheriff may revoke a license upon proof that the licensee is not a proper person to be licensed.

Honorable Jim Woodward [align=center][/align]

QUESTION 4
Is the Sheriff of Jefferson County, under law, required to issue any pistol permits if he so desires not to? FACTS AND ANALYSIS
Section 13A-11-75 of the Code states that “[t]he sheriff of the county may upon the application of any person residing in the county issue a qualified or unlimited license to such person to carry a pistol . . . .
” The fundamental rule of construction is to ascertain and give effect to the intent of the Legislature in enacting the statute. Gholston v. State, 620 So. 2d 719, 721 (Ala. 1993). The word “may” is generally used to imply permissive, optional, or discretional, and not mandatory action or conduct. American Bank­ers Life Assurance Co. v. Rice Acceptance Co., 739 So. 2d 1082, 1084 (Ala. 1999), quoting Black’s Law Dictionary 979 (6th ed. 1990). In enacting section 13A-11-75, the Legislature intended that the sheriffs of the counties issue pistol permits in appropriate cases. The use of “may” in the statute allows a sheriff not to issue a pistol permit to a person not qualified to carry a pistol, or to use his sound judgment to refuse to issue a permit to a person if there are circum­stances causing the sheriff to believe reasonably that the person should not pos­sess or own a pistol. The sheriff may not arbitrarily refuse to issue a permit without a sound reason. Crawford v. State, 356 So. 2d 690 (Ala. Cr. App. 1978); opinion of the Attorney General to Honorable John R. Phillips, Attorney-at-Law, Anniston, dated September 25, 1989, A.G. No. 89-00436.
CONCLUSION
The Sheriff of Jefferson County is to issue pistol permits in appropriate cases.

It would be hard, IMHO, for a sherrif to have a "sound reason" in the case of a person who has had a Pistol License for any length of time (25+ years in my case) and there has been no disqualifying crime commited.