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Video or Photography of Norfolk / VA State police / FBI training exercises prohibited

peter nap

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t33j wrote:
peter nap wrote:
t33j wrote:
I hadn't planned on it before the email. :X I could break out the 70-200mm :)

If you go here -> http://www.odu.edu/oduhome/campusmap.shtml and click on Student Recreation Center in the scroll box, the upper left hand quadrant of the map is what the email is talking about. There is 1 hour parking all along 49th street (and up) which is enforced fairly well at least during the Fall and Spring. If you rub off the chalk marks every ~1 hr you can stay indefinitely.

Not that it matters for you, peter nap but the sidewalks immediately bordering Powhatan and 49th are not ODU property. Actually, there's a privately owned convenience store right here
I ran my butt off finding holes in the perimeter to get pictures....of course, I didn't have this lens either:lol:

canon_600mm7.jpg
:D
I look at them (the lens:what:) every time I go on Adorama's site.
Ten grand....used:(
 

Repeater

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t33j wrote:
Got an email from ODU this afternoon. Can anyone offer a cite for the bolded part?


...Be advised that the Norfolk Field Office of the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), in conjunction with the Old Dominion Police Department, Norfolk Police Department and Virginia State Police, will be conducting live training exercises on campus from 12 a.m. Monday, May 17, through 5 p.m. Thursday, May 20...

Videotaping or photographing the training exercises is prohibited and access to the area will be restricted.
This sounds like a blog-worthy story for Carlos Miller:

Photography Is Not A Crime

Warning: see what can happen if you defy the edict:

New Jersey man arrested for videotaping police officers on a public street
May 15th, 2010 by Carlos Miller
A New Jersey man was harassed, intimidated and finally arrested for videotaping a group of cops who were undergoing “training” in a quiet residential neighborhood.

The cops were members of a SWAT team and were using explosives in an abandoned house, apparently training for the next time they violate somebody’s Fourth Amendment rights.

The man stood across the street and began filming and within one minute, he was confronted by a group of officers.

They asked why he was filming and he told them he was a documentary filmmaker.

But that didn’t satisfy them, so they continued asking why he was filming as if maybe his answer would suddenly change.

And then they continually asked him for identification, which he refused to provide.

They told him he was under legal obligation to provide identification because he was classified as a “suspicious person.”

Really? For filming a bunch of cops causing loud explosions in a quiet residential neighborhood? Who wouldn’t film that?

Then they ordered him to remove his hands from his pockets and informed him how some people go through the trouble of making guns out of cameras so they could shoot police more effectively. Or whatever.
 

big_bake

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Hey t33j,

I'm down to sit up on the new garage by foreman field or even the one on 43rd by the baseball field. That might give us a decent view. I have a 70-300 i can slap on my camera. If we want to get down by whitehurst, i have some friends that live right there on 48th. sit right in the front yard and snap away. we can show student ID and claim we are art students or something along those lines.
 

paramedic70002

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I sure hope none of you local OCers spontaneously decide to go for a walk there, during those times. But it sure would be funny!

I wonder if the participants will be toting sim guns and under 'no live ammo' orders...
 

simmonsjoe

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paramedic70002 wrote:
I sure hope none of you local OCers spontaneously decide to go for a walk there, during those times. But it sure would be funny!

I wonder if the participants will be toting sim guns and under 'no live ammo' orders...
Talk about turning the tables.
 

big_bake

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t33j wrote:
Tomorrow looks like rain. Later in the week?
we could always go down one deck to be sheltered.

sounds like we can use the SRC though, so i may go on a run on the 2nd story track to overlook the MAC. or walk toward the locker room to look out the back windows at that field they are restricting. my roommate is a manager there and says they are gonna be landing a helo in that field.
 

t33j

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Why the hell not? I'm not able to get in the SRC (beyond using the pool to test stuff) because I can't be bothered to take their ridiculous tour. Maybe you can make it ok with the manager. I think the garage on Elkhorn is a bit far for 200mm, probably even 300mm. The 49th garage might be better.

Of course the best option is 48th, in that we'd be closest, very obvious with our obnoxiously large lenses, and not subject to disarmament by the University.

ProShooter wrote:
that's not a lens....that's the Hubble telescope!

Close!

2433187773_48aee7236d.jpg


1200mm.jpg
 

Dreamer

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Repeater wrote:
Then they ordered him to remove his hands from his pockets and informed him how some people go through the trouble of making guns out of cameras so they could shoot police more effectively. Or whatever.

I defy anyone to produce a verifiable news story of a citizen in the US who disguised a firearm as a camera with the intent of using it to shoot an LEO.

To my knowledge the only people who disguise firearms as cameras are spies and covert ops people, and they are working for the GOVERNMENT.

I hope this guy gets a nice fat settlement...
 

big_bake

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Well as a manager he has to bitch at the front desk people if they don't check ID's or he gets yelled at from above him. But most of the time he's not watching over them. Most kids in there are students and could care less about their little campus job. Lately if they even ask for ID, the won't even run it through the reader. ODU is always behind on getting things running or even back in order. Those palm readers have been in for months and aren't even being used. one day when you're bored waiting around just take the stupid little tour, that's all it really is.
 

Dreamer

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They have scheduled an "active shooter" drill on my college campus this Tuesday.

http://www.ecu.edu/cs-studentlife/police/training_video.cfm

Unfortunately, my camera is in MD with my stepdaughter, or I'd be ALL over this one.

I may swing by campus anyway, to see what I can see, and maybe try to shoot some video on my cellphone...

BTW, the announcement says NOTHING about photography or video being prohibited, they just say to stay out of the "closed" areas, which is a list of about 7 buildings...
 

big_bake

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Well according to my roommate who works at the SRC, he says they landed a blackhawk as well as some little birds in that field. Of course it was very early this morning while most of us college kids were still sleeping off the night before. I have a buddy that lives ~200yds from the field and his eyes got big when i told him this evening. He had no clue and slept right through it.

Taking a look from an non-restricted area it seems like a few SWAT type vehicles are parked along powhatan and there are some communication looking vehicles sparsed through the parking lots.
 

marshaul

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I wish I could have been in Virginia for this. I would have brought two cameras and broadcast it on my internet TV station. Just because they told me not to. :p
 

Dreamer

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ProShooter wrote:
Dreamer wrote:
They have scheduled an "active shooter" drill on my college campus this Tuesday.

http://www.ecu.edu/cs-studentlife/police/training_video.cfm
Kudos to the Police Chief for putting out that video. Nice to keep the public informed so that panic is at a minimum.

They had signs posted all over campus too, and the ENTIRE section of campus where the exercise was happening was roped off with police tape, roadblock barricades and security staffers.

And actually, Summer Session just began today, and there were fewer than 1000 students on campus, and THOSE were being kept several hundred feet away from the effected (or should that be AFFECTED?...) buildings with police tape and barricades.

Most of the exercise was inside the buildings and for the entire time I was on campus today (from 9am-2pm) I didn't see a single bit of "activity" other than a few cruisers sitting in parking lots with their lights on.

I talked with some of the campus security folks, and they told me that the participants in the exercise finally "apprehended" the "shooter" sometime around 11:30.

The exercise began at 9:15.

Over 2 hours to "secure" the scene? Let's see what that would have done, historically:

Columbine: total elapsed shooting time: 32 minutes. 15 dead, 21 wounded. Police located Klebold and Harris about 10 minutes after they committed suicide.

VA Tech: total elapsed shooting time: 30 minutes. 32 dead, 19 wounded. Police located Cho about 5 minutes after he committed suicide.

University of TX: total elapsed shooting time: 90 minutes. 14 dead, 32 wounded. Police located Charles Whitman only after civilian student were able to provide suppressive fire with their legally-possessed hunting rifles so that police could gain access to the Tower. Whitman was shot by police, ending the incident.

So on this campus, where the possession of firearms is prohibited, and the average response time for Greenville City police to 911 calls is between 16 and 20 minutes, a 2-hour timeline for apprehending a "shooter" does not inspire a tremendous feeling of safety.

Consider that this exercise included local police, campus police, State Bureau of Investigation special operations officers, and even FBI specialists. Estimates are that between 50-100 LEOs were part of "active" part of this exercise, with a support staff of nearly 50 additional EMS personnel, firemen, unarmed campus security and other civilian support staff.

2 Hours.

In a cordoned-off area that included 7 buildings (from 2-5 stories--4 dorms and 3 general buildings) within less than 2 acres, and had NO students running around in a panic or trapped classrooms, dorm rooms or cafeterias. (yeah, THAT'S gonna provide a realistic scenario...)

2 Hours.

They must have arrived just in time to draw the chalk outlines and take forensic photographs.


Thank you, NCGC §14-269.2(b) for keeping my campus "gun free" by disarming law-abiding citizens on school property, and stripping them of their basic human right of self-defense.

I'm sure that the thugs, rapists, and the criminally insane will all abide by this statute and the pretty signs too.

What a tremendous waste of taxpayers money. They should have sent them all to the FBI academy in Quantico, or to H&K's Urban Tactical Workshops in Centreville VA, or to the BATFE's Forensic Labs for training in MD. Maybe THOSE sorts of training would actually have some sort of real-world impact on how our local LEA's do their jobs. But this little "photo-op" game of cowboys and indians is just a pointless waste of time and money, and only serves as a media event to instill a false sense of security, and garner support for increased funding for the further militarization of our police forces.

They say they are doing this to "provide an elevated level of safety" on campus.

I wonder if ANYONE in the NC Le community has ever heard of "Warren v. the District of Columbia", or bothered to study the timelines of historical civic "lone-nut" massacres in the US (EVERY SINGLE ONE of which, btw happened AFTER the Brady Campaign was started in 1983, with the exception of the UT incident, which was ONLY stopped because students had firearms)? Apparently not...


Yeah, I feel MUCH safer now...


Don't get me wrong. I'm NOT against LE training. I think we should see that all our LEO's are up-to-speed in current techniques, and in the use of the tools they need to do their job. But I think that this particular event is just ill-conceived, and quite honestly, a bit insulting to the intelligence of anyone who can think past the next episode of "Lost".It's fundamental premise is flawed, it's execution is completely non-realistic, and the message it sends is contrary to the legal, operational, logistical and historical facts of the matter.

I reject their "reality", and choose mine (which is based on facts, not some bureaucratically-dreamed-up fantasy) instead.


"How many fingers am I holding up now, Winston?"
 

ProShooter

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Dreamer wrote:
ProShooter wrote:
Dreamer wrote:
They have scheduled an "active shooter" drill on my college campus this Tuesday.

http://www.ecu.edu/cs-studentlife/police/training_video.cfm
Kudos to the Police Chief for putting out that video. Nice to keep the public informed so that panic is at a minimum.

They had signs posted all over campus too, and the ENTIRE section of campus where the exercise was happening was roped off with police tape, roadblock barricades and security staffers.

And actually, Summer Session just began today, and there were fewer than 1000 students on campus, and THOSE were being kept several hundred feet away from the effected (or should that be AFFECTED?...) buildings with police tape and barricades.

Most of the exercise was inside the buildings and for the entire time I was on campus today (from 9am-2pm) I didn't see a single bit of "activity" other than a few cruisers sitting in parking lots with their lights on.

I talked with some of the campus security folks, and they told me that the participants in the exercise finally "apprehended" the "shooter" sometime around 11:30.

The exercise began at 9:15.

Over 2 hours to "secure" the scene? Let's see what that would have done, historically:

Columbine: total elapsed shooting time: 32 minutes. 15 dead, 21 wounded. Police located Klebold and Harris about 10 minutes after they committed suicide.

VA Tech: total elapsed shooting time: 30 minutes. 32 dead, 19 wounded. Police located Cho about 5 minutes after he committed suicide.

University of TX: total elapsed shooting time: 90 minutes. 14 dead, 32 wounded. Police located Charles Whitman only after civilian student were able to provide suppressive fire with their legally-possessed hunting rifles so that police could gain access to the Tower. Whitman was shot by police, ending the incident.

So on this campus, where the possession of firearms is prohibited, and the average response time for Greenville City police to 911 calls is between 16 and 20 minutes, a 2-hour timeline for apprehending a "shooter" does not inspire a tremendous feeling of safety.

Consider that this exercise included local police, campus police, State Bureau of Investigation special operations officers, and even FBI specialists. Estimates are that between 50-100 LEOs were part of "active" part of this exercise, with a support staff of nearly 50 additional EMS personnel, firemen, unarmed campus security and other civilian support staff.

2 Hours.

In a cordoned-off area that included 7 buildings (from 2-5 stories--4 dorms and 3 general buildings) within less than 2 acres, and had NO students running around in a panic or trapped classrooms, dorm rooms or cafeterias. (yeah, THAT'S gonna provide a realistic scenario...)

2 Hours.

They must have arrived just in time to draw the chalk outlines and take forensic photographs.


Thank you, NCGC §14-269.2(b) for keeping my campus "gun free" by disarming law-abiding citizens on school property, and stripping them of their basic human right of self-defense.

I'm sure that the thugs, rapists, and the criminally insane will all abide by this statute and the pretty signs too.

What a tremendous waste of taxpayers money. They should have sent them all to the FBI academy in Quantico, or to H&K's Urban Tactical Workshops in Centreville VA, or to the BATFE's Forensic Labs for training in MD. Maybe THOSE sorts of training would actually have some sort of real-world impact on how our local LEA's do their jobs. But this little "photo-op" game of cowboys and indians is just a pointless waste of time and money, and only serves as a media event to instill a false sense of security, and garner support for increased funding for the further militarization of our police forces.

They say they are doing this to "provide an elevated level of safety" on campus.

I wonder if ANYONE in the NC Le community has ever heard of "Warren v. the District of Columbia", or bothered to study the timelines of historical civic "lone-nut" massacres in the US (EVERY SINGLE ONE of which, btw happened AFTER the Brady Campaign was started in 1983, with the exception of the UT incident, which was ONLY stopped because students had firearms)? Apparently not...


Yeah, I feel MUCH safer now...


Don't get me wrong. I'm NOT against LE training. I think we should see that all our LEO's are up-to-speed in current techniques, and in the use of the tools they need to do their job. But I think that this particular event is just ill-conceived, and quite honestly, a bit insulting to the intelligence of anyone who can think past the next episode of "Lost".It's fundamental premise is flawed, it's execution is completely non-realistic, and the message it sends is contrary to the legal, operational, logistical and historical facts of the matter.

I reject their "reality", and choose mine (which is based on facts, not some bureaucratically-dreamed-up fantasy) instead.


"How many fingers am I holding up now, Winston?"
Obviously I dont know for certain, but a guess would be that the 2 hours needed to secure the scene were due to a hostage situation. The Chief stated that there would be hostages/actors. A realistic hostage situation would/could take several hours to diffuse.
 

Tomahawk

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The state likes to put cameras all over the place to watch us. Maybe when something like this happens a few spy cameras left in key places might not be a bad idea.

After all, if the LEOs aren't doing anything wrong, what do they have to hide?

I don't believe in secret police activity.
 

Dreamer

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ProShooter wrote:
Obviously I dont know for certain, but a guess would be that the 2 hours needed to secure the scene were due to a hostage situation. The Chief stated that there would be hostages/actors. A realistic hostage situation would/could take several hours to diffuse.

Please cite a single civil mass shooting incident in the history of the US where there was an extended hostage situation that lasted more than 40 minutes.

Historically, mass shooters have never taken hostages in prolonged standoffs. They are almost without exception, relatively speedy preludes to suicide or "suicide by cop."

Yet more proof of my assertion that this entire "exercise" has little basis in historical precedent or realism...


Don't get me wrong--I'm all for LE training. I think training, preparation, and contingency planning are CRITICAL for effective LE. I spent ten years of my professional career in support of research, assessment, and publishing of such information as a contractor under numerous DOJ contracts, including NIJ, BJS, NCJRS, and NLECTC. I'm proud of most of the work I did in that field, and consider it to have been useful, positive, and crucial to the development and education of the LE community nationwide.

But this exercise, and others like it, are usually designed by bureaucrats with complete disregard for historical or operational realism, and are, by and large, nothing more than a high-dollar excuse for PR photo-ops intended to instill a false sense of "security" and to use for securing public support for increased funding.

I just think the time and money would be more productively spent on other forms of more practical training, planning, education, and outreach. This wasn't training. It was a media event. Plain and simple.

Let's just be honest about that...
 
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