Unlawfully detained at Southcenter mall

[Jered]

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Stories like this make me want to start making anonymous 'man with a gun' calls.

 

[expvideo]

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The Tukwila Police department internal investigations department mailed me a letter telling me that their investigation uncovered no wrong-doing by the police officers. The police reports were a complete lie, in which they said that I was jumping around, acting like I was a heroin addict, and making threatening moves toward them, including "going at" one of the officers, all the while they were telling me that they knew I had a right to open carry, and tried to calm me down.

The police reports were an indication that the officers got an earfull at the station about how I was right, and will serve as a lesson in the future to not file complaints until AFTER the officers have filed their reports.

The department told me that they officers do not have recording devices, and their car that was pointed at us had no dash cam. So it boils down to this: My statements vs. the reports of 3 officers.

After hours of phone calls and attempts to find a lawyer, I found one lawyer that was willing to take the case, with a 25% contingency and $2500. The consensus of the lawyers that I spoke with was that I wouldn't get more than a couple hundred dollars out of the suit and it would be a complete waste of time.

I grew fatigued of the issue, and since I don't have that kind of money or time, and I already have such low faith in the justice system, I thought I would save myself yet another blow to my faith in the effectiveness of theconstitution.

 

[BB62]

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expvideo wrote:

The Tukwila Police department internal investigations department mailed me a letter telling me that their investigation uncovered no wrong-doing by the police officers. The police reports were a complete lie, in which they said that I was jumping around, acting like I was a heroin addict, and making threatening moves toward them, including "going at" one of the officers, all the while they were telling me that they knew I had a right to open carry, and tried to calm me down...

It took them 5 MONTHS to send you a response??

Okay, so let me get this straight... you were acting like a herion addict, making threatening moves towards the officers, including "going at" one, but out of the kindness of their hearts, they decided that having you merely trespassed by the mall would address your "issues"... RIIIIIGHT.

Let me tell you about a guy who came into our neighboorhood who merely repeatedly verbally questioned the officers involved the incident - he got a disorderly conduct citation - but you skate despite your "actions"?? ROFL.

If your and their actions were exactly as you first described - I would send a response back to IA (and the Chief) addressing matters such as those described above, ask that it be put into the officer's files, and into whatever publically available repository the department has. In that same letter I would put the department on notice that you don't appreciate being lied about OR lied to and that future incidents of the same nature will be evidence of a pattern of unprofessional and extra-legal behavior that will doubtlessly be detrimental to the department.

Furthermore, I would send letters to the mayor and council members, in addtion to covering the matters above, advise them of the potential cost of such ill-advisedbehavior by their officers.

FINALLY - Lonnie Wilson, where are you? Every poster here (esp expvideo) ought to read his summary of his **2 hour**conversation with the training officer of the department, penned a mere 4 DAYS after the incident, and try to square it with the creative writing of the officers on the scene. (Yeah, put that in your various letters too)

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum55/3696-5.html

Last thing - Olympus VN-4100PC and FlipVideo:

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=6926



BB62

 

[TechnoWeenie]

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expvideo wrote:

The Tukwila Police department internal investigations department mailed me a letter telling me that their investigation uncovered no wrong-doing by the police officers.  The police reports were a complete lie, in which they said that I was jumping around, acting like I was a heroin addict, and making threatening moves toward them, including "going at" one of the officers, all the while they were telling me that they knew I had a right to open carry, and tried to calm me down. 

The police reports were an indication that the officers got an earfull at the station about how I was right, and will serve as a lesson in the future to not file complaints until AFTER the officers have filed their reports.

The department told me that they officers do not have recording devices, and their car that was pointed at us had no dash cam.  So it boils down to this: My statements vs. the reports of 3 officers.

After hours of phone calls and attempts to find a lawyer, I found one lawyer that was willing to take the case, with a 25% contingency and $2500.  The consensus of the lawyers that I spoke with was that I wouldn't get more than a couple hundred dollars out of the suit and it would be a complete waste of time.

I grew fatigued of the issue, and since I don't have that kind of money or time, and I already have such low faith in the justice system, I thought I would save myself yet another blow to my faith in the effectiveness of the constitution.

Lemme get this straight..

The officers claimed you were acting like a heroin addict, ARMED, jumping around, making THREATENING moves towards the officers, and 'going at' one of the officers, and they sent you on your merry way? I call BS, complete 100% BS.

There's no way an officer is gonna just 'let' some 'crazed, violent man armed with a gun' to 'come at' them...And if they did, I'd be more worried about THAT than I would of them 'roughing up' a citizen.

 

[expvideo]

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BB62 wrote:

If your and their actions were exactly as you first described - I would send a response back to IA (and the Chief) addressing matters such as those described above, ask that it be put into the officer's files, and into whatever publically available repository the department has. In that same letter I would put the department on notice that you don't appreciate being lied about OR lied to and that future incidents of the same nature will be evidence of a pattern of unprofessional and extra-legal behavior that will doubtlessly be detrimental to the department.

Furthermore, I would send letters to the mayor and council members, in addtion to covering the matters above, advise them of the potential cost of such ill-advisedbehavior by their officers.

You have a lot more energy than I do. I am so fatigued of trying to fight this that I have become apathetic to the issue. Attempting to sue the police is not something a poor person apparently should not do, when armed only with enthusiasm, and not with good lawyer money. I have so little faith in the justice system that I don't see any of that doing anything.

 

[Hillbillly]

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Thats why I CC ..I am just as well protected maybe more then you and I don't have to deal with things like this..there is enough drama in life without having to create it ...I hear alot about people that oc being questioned by the police and others ...it's ok for you and I can agree with what you are doing just not for me

 

[Dave_pro2a]

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expvideo wrote:

You have a lot more energy than I do. I am so fatigued of trying to fight this that I have become apathetic to the issue. Attempting to sue the police is not something a poor person apparently should not do, when armed only with enthusiasm, and not with good lawyer money. I have so little faith in the justice system that I don't see any of that doing anything.

My condolences and respect.

And fwiw, I think the more people lose faith in police and the justice system... the more likely we are to see change... someday.

It's a broken system, full of corruption and immoral people.

 

[BB62]

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expvideo wrote:

BB62 wrote:

If your and their actions were exactly as you first described - I would send a response back to IA (and the Chief) addressing matters such as those described above...

You have a lot more energy than I do. I am so fatigued of trying to fight this that I have become apathetic to the issue. Attempting to sue the police is not something a poor person apparently should not do, when armed only with enthusiasm, and not with good lawyer money. I have so little faith in the justice system that I don't see any of that doing anything.

I didn't suggest you pursue further legal action at this time, merely that you put the city and department on notice for future incidents. One of the things that the attorneys may havetold you (as they did me when I was stopped at gunpoint by 3 officers while OCing) is that a pattern of misbehavior is red meat for an attorney.

If you decide to CC because of this incident, then all you have done is validate their actions. Instead you ought to carry more -practically begging them to misbehave. Theyaren't stupid, they and the city know the rules too - in the short term it's just that justice does not come in the swift and low cost manner you and I would prefer - but over the longer term it becomes more assured.

I know it's a tough decision.

 

[Bear 45/70]

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Dave_pro2a wrote:

expvideo wrote:

You have a lot more energy than I do. I am so fatigued of trying to fight this that I have become apathetic to the issue. Attempting to sue the police is not something a poor person apparently should not do, when armed only with enthusiasm, and not with good lawyer money. I have so little faith in the justice system that I don't see any of that doing anything.

My condolences and respect.

And fwiw, I think the more people lose faith in police and the justice system... the more likely we are to see change... someday.

It's a broken system, full of corruption and immoral people.

I find it had to believe you can't find a lawyer who wouldn't take this on a contingency fee bases. Otherwise he gets paid if he wins, which pretty much would take much of an attorney to win this.

 

[amlevin]

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Bear 45/70 wrote:

Dave_pro2a wrote:

expvideo wrote:

You have a lot more energy than I do. I am so fatigued of trying to fight this that I have become apathetic to the issue. Attempting to sue the police is not something a poor person apparently should not do, when armed only with enthusiasm, and not with good lawyer money. I have so little faith in the justice system that I don't see any of that doing anything.

My condolences and respect.

And fwiw, I think the more people lose faith in police and the justice system... the more likely we are to see change... someday.

It's a broken system, full of corruption and immoral people.

I find it had to believe you can't find a lawyer who wouldn't take this on a contingency fee bases. Otherwise he gets paid if he wins, which pretty much would take much of an attorney to win this.

By no means do I defend the action of these officers. As to suing them, the attorneys are most likely right in that the case would not be worth much. In order to get any substantial "Damages" one has to prove that there were actually damages that money can cure. Injury? Jail Time resulting in lost work, etc? I sucks but incidents like these can only be cured by collecting lots (I mean a whole lot) of similar reports involving the same officers and department and then filing a Federal Complaint. The only thing that will come out of that is an FBI investigation and maybe some slapped hands.

On the positive side, the more incidents like this that are made public, and the more the department suffers embarassment, the more liklihood that change will occur. I would try to cultivate a friendly news reporter. Whether or not the paper/TV station is "Left Wing", police abuse does make for interesting news reports.

 

[Wheelgunner]

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Sorry Expvideo.

God what a screwed up situation. Some of the other stories on the blog have been talking about LEO lying, falsifying reports, lying on the stand, etc. Frankly, as video gets more and more common, I see this being defeated more and more.

Personal video cameras, etc will help kill this.

 

[Citizen]

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Without recordings, you've accomplished plenty.

It will be a while before they try something like that again. They know there is at least one citizen who knows the law and will push back.

I understand peace and calm has reigned for OC'ers in Manassas since the Tony's Incident. According to the police absolutely nothing alleged by the armed citizen's occurred, except the bad text message language. Yet, not one OC'er has been hassled since then that I recall.

Your message got through.

 

[Malum Prohibitum]

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expvideo wrote:

This Saturday (07/21/2007), my fiancé Taylor and I went to Tacoma to participate in a barbeque for the Pacific Northwest Open Carry group. I was wearing blue jeans and a yellow polo shirt tucked in, and a handgun in a retention holster on my belt. I was not making any attempt to conceal this handgun, as Washington is a legal open carry state. We ate and enjoyed ourselves and at about 2:00pm we decided to leave.



On our way back to Lynnwood, we decided to stop at the Westfield Shoppingtown Southcenter mall, to do some shopping. I was still wearing the same outfit, and still open carrying, in violation of no laws. We were courteous and friendly to everyone we spoke with at the mall, and at no time did I touch or gesture toward my handgun. Unsatisfied with the mall selection, after over an hour of searching for a product, we decided to leave the same way we came, through Sears and across the drive to their parking garage. As we were walking into the parking garage, two Tukwila Police Department officers (badge numbers 160 and 168) yelled at me “Hey, stop. Put your hands behind your head”. I complied and asked what the problem was. I remained polite and professional throughout our encounter and never raised my voice. 168 said “You’re carrying a visible gun with no badge”. I told him that it was legal and within my rights. He said I had to conceal it and that I had no right to open carry.



He asked for my concealed weapon permit. I asked him if I was being detained. He said no. I asked “Am I free to leave?” He got angry and said “NO!” I said “then am I being detained?” He said yes, I was being detained for investigation of a concealed weapons permit.



I started to fish my permit out of my wallet, and he could plainly see it. Second thinking the actions that were being taken against me and the unconstitutionality of their actions, I returned the permit to my wallet without giving it to them and told them that I do not have to show them a permit. I was firm but polite. I let them know that I only had to show them a permit if I was concealing a gun. 160 told me that I was wrong and I had to have a permit to carry no matter what. I politely refused to show them my permit and 168 grabbed my arm, forcefully twisting it behind my back. Fearing for my safety, I said “Can I just give you my id?” 168 let go of my arm and let me get my Drivers License. They continued running my license and at this time 171 arrived. I asked if I was being detained, and he said that I was.



At this point a mall security guard had joined in on the argument. He was reading off of the back of his permit and read “Every licensee shall have his or her concealed pistol.” This is the only point of the conversation that I said anything disrespectful. I said, “finish the sentence, jackass.” This was rude of me, and the officers responded as such yelling in my face, 171 coming within a centimeter of touching noses with me. I feared again for my safety. The reason I told the security guard to finish the sentence was that the whole sentence says “Every licensee shall have his or her concealed pistol license[/b] in his or her possession at all times that he or she is required by law...” the sentence did not say that I had to conceal the pistol, as the guard had stated.



Another security guard told me that it was illegal to carry in the mall. I told him that it may be against his mall policy, but it is not illegal. He said that the ruled was posted at all entrances to the mall. I told him that we entered through Sears, and didn’t see a sign. He confirmed that there was no sign at that entrance.



I asked 171 if I was free to go. He said no, so I asked why. He said that I was being detained for a Tukwila law that says I can’t open carry. I told him that there was state preemption and Tukwila gun laws are not enforceable. He told me that city law supersedes state law, and the state law was invalid. I gave him RCW 9.41.290 and told him that he was mistaken. He told me that he didn’t need to look that up because it didn’t matter. I insisted that if it didn’t matter, he should just look it up. He said “Look, I don’t give a @#$% about that”. He then told me that normal people don’t carry guns and I was causing alarm. I said that just having a gun does not cause alarm and he told me I was wrong. He said that they had arrested someone a few months ago for the same thing and that he was able to be prosecuted. I said that I hadn’t violated any laws. And he insisted that I had. He asked why I was carrying in the mall anyway. I replied “to protect myself”. He said, “are you going to shoot someone in the mall?” I said, no I’m not going to shoot anybody, did I act like I was going to shoot somebody?” He replied “No, it’s just…” At that point I was no longer under suspicion of causing alarm, as I had not acted in a way that would make someone as rational as officer 171 think that I was a threat, therefore not causing warranted alarm.



The police forced me to stay there as the mall security wrote up a trespass notice and took my picture. I am now trespassed from the Westfield mall. I asked throughout this process if I was free to go or if I was being detained. 171 said that I was being detained for trespass. I told him that I wasn’t trespassing, and he agreed, but said I had to wait to get my papers. Finally when the security guard finished the papers and forced me to sign them, 160 told me that I was free to go. I asked for their badge numbers.



It is important to note that throughout this entire ordeal, from the very beginning, I asked to speak with a superior officer. They said that was fine, but never sent for one.



I was frightened, unlawfully detained, publicly humiliated and my rights were violated.



After this ordeal, I went to the Tukwila Police Department and spoke with an Officer E Lund, badge number 126. He was the ranking officer on the shift. He said that he supported his officers’ actions, and agreed that I had violated the law. He refused to look at the training bulletins for local police departments (Kent and Federal Way), and said that those weren’t laws and meant nothing. He said that RCW 9.41.290 did not restrict the power of the city’s laws. He said that I had violated the law and that his officers were not doing anything wrong. He said that he didn’t have time to argue about laws with me, and that if I wanted to file a complaint he’d get me the paperwork himself. Naturally, I agreed that this was a good idea. I filed a complaint with my statement and Taylor’s witness statement and told him that I was planning to open a lawsuit against the police department.



It is important to understand that aside from my snide remark to the security guard, I kept a polite and calm composure. I never raised my voice to the officers, and was never aggressive with my arguments. The officers on the other hand caused a very public scene and literally yelled in my face and physically restrained my arm. I feared for my safety.



It is also important that I point out that 160 was very polite and calm throughout this procedure. While he was mistaken about the laws, he was never forceful and was always patient. He tried to calm the other officers. I hold no hard feelings about this event toward officer 160. Officers 168 and 171 were physically and verbally abusive to me. 171 told me he could arrest me several times. Every time he said it, I responded with “go ahead and arrest me, I will sue your department.” I was in great fear for my safety from 171 and 168 throughout this whole ordeal.



I will be filing a lawsuit against the Tukwila Police for unlawful imprisonment/false arrest, defamation of character, harassment, assault (against officer 168) and anything else I can think of that is misconduct related.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/M/MALL_SHOOTING?SITE=CAANR&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

 

[Dave Workman]

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Malum Prohibitum wrote:

expvideo wrote:

This Saturday (07/21/2007), my fiancé Taylor and I went to Tacoma to participate in a barbeque for the Pacific Northwest Open Carry group. I was wearing blue jeans and a yellow polo shirt tucked in, and a handgun in a retention holster on my belt. I was not making any attempt to conceal this handgun, as Washington is a legal open carry state. We ate and enjoyed ourselves and at about 2:00pm we decided to leave.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/M/MALL_SHOOTING?SITE=CAANR&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

Okay, I give up.

Is there any reason to repeat this post? We all know about it, and last weekend's misfortune certainly underscores the irony of the mall's no-guns policy.

QUESTION:

Does anyone have an image of a sign at any of the entrances to Southcenter that declares the mall a Gun Free Zone? Or simply a sign that says "Firearms Prohibited?"

That's going to be important.

 

[just_a_car]

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Dave Workman wrote:

Okay, I give up.

Is there any reason to repeat this post? We all know about it, and last weekend's misfortune certainly underscores the irony of the mall's no-guns policy.

QUESTION:

Does anyone have an image of a sign at any of the entrances to Southcenter that declares the mall a Gun Free Zone? Or simply a sign that says "Firearms Prohibited?"

That's going to be important.

I agree, I don't know why they reposted that... oh, and had to requote a HUGE post *headdesk*

As for the picture, no I don't have one, but I'll see what I can do about getting one today.

 

[Bill Starks]

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Does anyone have an image of a sign at any of the entrances to Southcenter that declares the mall a Gun Free Zone? Or simply a sign that says "Firearms Prohibited?"

I don't know about South Center but at the Tacoma Mall the No Weapons signs are placed at every outside mall entrance. However none are placed at the larger store entrances (Sears, JC Pennys, Macys, Norstrom). The signs are about 4 inches square and transparent.

 

[jarhead1911A]

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actually my detainment was with guns drawn.....

 

[PolskiG]

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M1Gunr wrote:

Does anyone have an image of a sign at any of the entrances to Southcenter that declares the mall a Gun Free Zone? Or simply a sign that says "Firearms Prohibited?"

I don't know about South Center but at the Tacoma Mall the No Weapons signs are placed at every outside mall entrance. However none are placed at the larger store entrances (Sears, JC Pennys, Macys, Norstrom). The signs are about 4 inches square and transparent.

Well I found out tonight. Theres a stand-up type sign near the enterance inside the mall that has all of the policies written out in like 5 font. I open carried in there today at arounf 6:30 and was stopped by mall securitythey were on high alert. Tukwila PD took over and were SUPER nice about it, I ended up having a conversation about their Kimber 1911s that they carry and about issues with my P2000. An officer and I ended up walking around the front of the enterance I came in (the side of Nordstroms)looking for a NO-WEAPONS sign but couldn't find anything. Thats when mall security showed me that list of rules located inside that is impossible to see along with giving me a crumpled up policy pamplete saying that. I'm also banned for a year starting today 11-24-2008-typing for reference. Overall great experience with Tukwila PD. Not so good with Southcenter Mall Ninjas

 

[joeroket]

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They actually issued you a trespass notice?

 

[PolskiG]

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joeroket wrote:

They actually issued you a trespass notice?

Yes, but I refused to sign it though they did take a picture of me, this all took place near the Apple store. I only cooperated with the police which is why I thinkI was never disarmed and was allowed to leave freely after a couple of questions. They never even ran my id. I also made NWCNews the fallowing day, I was mentioned briefly.

The last name of the officer was Devin, I think L. Devin. Really cool guy, we talked for like 15 mins about is Kimber 1911 the whole time mall security was hoovering around pissed off that I came in there like that and that I never read their 5 font sign. The officers partner was alright too he was more curious about why I OC and if I had ever run into any problems before.