New here... but why do you....????

[Tomahawk]

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I do not care about changing the minds of the hardcore antis. Waste of time. The fence-sitters are where all the action is at.

The only way to deal with antis is to whip them with facts, publicly and firmly. Show them to be wrong in the eyes of the fence-sitters. Marginalize them, better yet, let them marginalize themselves.

If, every once in a blue moon, a hardcore anti changes his mind, that's all well and good. But don't waste energy on it.

 

[para_org]

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openryan wrote:

I realize that the two serve in tandem, however do you think of no better avenue of chaning the minds of anti's than with stictly open carrying. These people are thinking facts. I firmly believe that not many of them will respond to oc'ing the way we wish. -- The fence-sitters -- maybe.

The people against us need to be shown facts and studies, we will acheive a minimal response from hardcore anti's like the Brady's from action alone.

Facts are only of interest to those that can use them. (Brady-types cannot use them so they are of no interest to them.) <- You learn this with age I guess, as it comes to the older amongst us.


Or put another way: Can you cite even ONE instance of someone from one of the BRady outfits that has EVER changed their mind ? If you can/are able to provide such a person; -> Do you really think they were properly committed in the first place or only just a "fence-sitter" type ?

And NO....The Brady types do not think in terms of facts, or as you put it; "thinking facts". They are spouting crap dished out as facts, but when presented with true facts that do not fit the results they want, they are not interested in such facts. i.e. The only facts I have ever seen a Brady type want to discuss is the ones they present. Not the ones you wish to present.

 

[vrwmiller]

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openryan wrote:

As far as political activism -- It may change a few minds and it may desensitize people to guns, but I think that literature would be a better step than open carry -- people who are anti's certainly are not going to be in agreement with us just because we are showing them of our right.

People who are ardent anti's won't be interested in your literature either. The only people that can be easily swayed are the fence sitters and this can be done either by carrying a firearm openly or with literature.

To convert the more ardent antis will take face to face discussion. However, the most ardent antis cannot be reasoned with.

 

[vrwmiller]

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openryan wrote:

I realize that the two serve in tandem, however do you think of no better avenue of chaning the minds of anti's than with stictly open carrying. These people are thinking facts. I firmly believe that not many of them will respond to oc'ing the way we wish. -- The fence-sitters -- maybe.

The people against us need to be shown facts and studies, we will acheive a minimal response from hardcore anti's like the Brady's from action alone.

Many ardent antis are fueled by emotions, not reason. The presentation of facts and studies will have little effect on them. Perhaps the fence sitters, but not the ardent antis.

 

[openryan]

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I see you direction of thinking, and I do agree that most hardcore anti's cannot be swayed. If they can it will most likely because they themselves or a close loved one has experienced, first hand, and armed robbery, home invasin etc.

However I think that when dealing with these types of fanatics -- even though literature will not sway most the the adamant anti's it is still a better route than demonstration alone, but would also work well in tandem.

Did not try to say that it would change all of their minds overnight, but you cannot prove them wrong based on oc'ing alone.

 

[BobCav]

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The only time I've seen an ardent anti converted is when they needed a gun and didn't have one.

Most fence sitters I know of have never fired a gun and have no idea how much fun shooting can be. Take them shooting!

 

[para_org]

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BobCav wrote:

The only time I've seen an ardent anti converted is when they needed a gun and didn't have one.

Most fence sitters I know of have never fired a gun and have no idea how much fun shooting can be. Take them shooting!

Hear hear !!...I try to do the same thing when the conversatiopn presents an opening. Most people do not read enough anymore anyways, so giving them a handout bigger than a business card is useually worthless.

But I do give business card sized handouts. It is designed to be read in 10 seconds or so, which is about the recommended time frame to infuse an idea. Ever notice how long a commercial on the popular media will run >, Now notice how long they spend implanting an idea.

Further notice what they go after; a fear usually.


So the handout is a good idea, and yes openryan you are right it can be used effectively, but "facts" that do not also appeal to emotions and are VERY short are usually of no value to the fence-sitters. We have ALL been conditioned to the quick, and so our attempts at "advertising" our position needs to be similarily fast, to the point, and emotional.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

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[align=left]Heatho,[/align]
[align=left] Rather than repeat myself (which I do enough of already at my age!) please check my post of 6-25-06 on the Indiana page under "OC in Indiana". [/align]

 

[cut_cutta]

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Hey heatho, as a fellow Washingtonian, I thought I'd reply. I live in Skagit county, and also spend a lot of time in Watcom county. I first came to these boards only a month or so ago, and I had a lot of the same questions as you. Before I read these boards, I didnt even know it was legal. Then I thought "man what a bunch of power tripping jackasses". Then I thought "what a bunch of idiots, they are going to get shot first". But after a lot of thinking and reading, I became a convert.

Here are my reasons for OCing --

Comfort: It's more comfortable to OC than to CC. Also easier to strap up or disarm.

Education: OCing not only educates people about the right to OC, and 2nd amendment rights, but it educates people that not all gun owners are criminals or nuts. I know that would be an absurd assumption to make, but most law abiding gun owners leave them at home or CC, so the only time most non-gun owners see or hear about guns involves a criminal or crazy person of some sort. Exposing them to sane, gun toting people can do a lot in terms of enlightenment.

Deterance: Like others have said, this is a trade off. The way I see it, it is more positive than negative. I used to be a criminal and was involved with a gang, and spent a few years of my life soley affiliating with other criminals, (although I never did any violent crimes), so I would venture to say I know how a criminal thinks. I would STRONGLY disagree with an earlier statement that a poster made, saying that most street criminals are unintelligent and unaware of their environment. While I would agree that most aren't incredibly 'book smart', they tend to be very 'street smart', and very aware of their surroundings at all times.

However, like others have said, if a criminal is looking to commit a crime, especially a mugging, assault, rape, robbery, etc, they are looking for the easiest target. Think of it this way: a steering wheel lock like the "club" can be easily circumvented, if one is so inclinded. But why bother with the hassle, when there is the same make and model car down the street with no steering wheel lock?

Open carry is a strong form of deterent for muggings, assaults, rapes, etc, because criminals do not WANT to murder anybody (unless they're a serial killer, in which case OC would still be a deterent for them to choose you as a target). They do not want any drama whatsoever. A criminal looking for easy money would rather wait to find a target that is easy prey, rather than risk getting killed, or getting a lot of attention put on their crime as a result of a murder, not to mention the murder charge they'd be facing if caught. They would rather just find easier prey.

The ONLY situation I can think of in which open carry would not be a deterent, and more of a hazard would be in a bank robbery type 'hold-up' situation, where the criminal marches into the building without scouting out the interior first, mask already on face. At that point they are at a point of no return, and already facing federal charges, they might kill someone they see with a gun with no warning because they perceive them as a threat, but who knows for sure what would happen, and every situation is different. Personally, I prefer to conceal my weapon in a bank because of this reason, however. (A bank has insurance anyway, and I dont carry to "be a hero". If I felt personally threatened enough, I could always attempt to draw and fire, when carrying concealed in a bank.)


The only other situations I can think of where concealed carry would be more beneficial than open carry are in places where you can not be confident of your surroundings and pistol retention, and since you are from the Seattle area, when it is raining out. Better to keep your pistol dry .

On a more personal note, another reason why I OC is because I have a lot of enemies, who want to rob me or hurt me, or both, because I am a former drug dealer, and haters are an aspect of my past that I can't get rid of. When they see my pistol, it stops any drama in its tracks.

Oh yeah, I almost forgot my favorite reason for why I openly carry: WHY SHOULDN'T I?

Hopefully some of my reasoning will make sense, or maybe I just did too much of my own product back in the day.

 

[Lthrnck]

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Well going back to my first post on this... "The Right".... to keep and bear arms. It isgetting lost in "The Privilige" to Conceal Carry. If we don't exercise this Right people will continue to chip away at it and sooner then later it will be taken away.

Anti-gunners will be able to say..."Why do you need to open carry, hardly anyone does it, and even in your pro-gun groups, you can't come together on why open carry should or should not be done.?

Once the Anti's get the "Right" struck down, how long do you think it will take them to get the "Privilige" toConceal Carry voted out.

Think about thisfolks. If we continue to debate this topic within our own camps, we just keep giving the anti's more fuel for their fires. If we continue to not open carry, we give the anti's more fuel.

If you believe in a Right, then you should exercise it. Handing out pamphlets is a good way to do it.... But you better have your gun on your hip while doing it, or people will just say.... "Hmm he want's me to exercise my gun rights and gives me this literature, but he doesn't have the guts to back up his opinion."

We need to quit debating this issue within our own groups and just agree, Open Carry and Concealed Carry are both viable means of Self Defense.Chose the one or both that you like and exercise it, but don't look down on the other if you only chose one type of Self Defense.

Quit giving the anti's the ammunition to say, "They can't agree on this issue".....

 

[Hawkflyer]

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Lthrnck wrote:

Well going back to my first post on this... "The Right".... to keep and bear arms.  It is getting lost in "The Privilige" to Conceal Carry. If we don't exercise this Right people will continue to chip away at it and sooner then later it will be taken away.

Anti-gunners will be able to say..."Why do you need to open carry, hardly anyone does it, and even in your pro-gun groups, you can't come together on why open carry should or should not be done.?

Once the Anti's get the "Right" struck down, how long do you think it will take them to get the "Privilige" to Conceal Carry voted out.  

Think about this folks. If we continue to debate this topic within our own camps, we just keep giving the anti's more fuel for their fires.  If we continue to not open carry, we give the anti's more fuel.

If you believe in a Right, then you should exercise it.  Handing out pamphlets is a good way to do it.... But you better have your gun on your hip while doing it, or people will just say.... "Hmm he want's me to exercise my gun rights and gives me this literature, but he doesn't have the guts to back up his opinion."

We need to quit debating this issue within our own groups and just agree, Open Carry and Concealed Carry are both viable means of Self Defense.  Chose the one or both that you like and exercise it, but don't look down on the other if you only chose one type of Self Defense.

Quit giving the anti's the ammunition to say, "They can't agree on this issue"..... 

I am not certain that I agree with this. The discussion of carry methods, is not about the legality of carry, it is about the method. At the foundation, both sides of the argument agree that "carry" is legal, they merely disagree as to the method of carry.

IMHO this hardly gives the anti-rights side ammo for their view. They do not need ammo as their entire premise is void of fact. If they try to use the arguments presented on most pro-rights forums, they will fail, because most of those arguments are based in the premise that firearms should be and are legal, and carrying them is a natural extension of that simple fact.

I would agree that all this argument is tedious. Carry is carry. Weather you wear a cover garment is irrelevant, to that basic fact. The argument DOES create a split in the firearms community that causes people to conclude that if they chose not to carry in a particular way that they have no duty to help protect those that do. Through that split, laws can be enacted that like cancer will spread to more popularly supported carry methods. That is a bad thing. A house divided cannot stand.

Frankly it could be argued that concealed carry is more dangerous than open carry in a LEO encounter. Clearly any LEO will tell you that when a firearm suddenly and unexpectedly enters into the situation by surprise, they quickly become VERY uncomfortable. But if they see it before the encounter starts, they are prepared mentally and physically to proceed with a higher degree of comfort. In this case comfort equals safety.

Regards

 

[Citizen]

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Hey, lets not forget that open carry attracts petty little tyrants in blue and lets us force them to recognize our rights!

If they didn't harass an OC'er, we'd never know. Plus, I'll bet a number of those anti-gun cops would willingly go along with a New Orleans-Katrina type confiscation and who-knows what else. Also, if they're willing to act like jerks over 2A, you gotta wonder which other Rights they're willing encroach.

Get a complaint to stick against them in their personnel file and their promotion prospects get a little "infringed."

At least with this type ofanti-gunner we can kick back, and kick hard.

 

[BobCav]

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Citizen wrote:

...Get a complaint to stick against them in their personnel file and their promotion prospects get a little "infringed."

Or get a letter of praise for an excellent encounter posted in their files and their promotion chances increase. All because they knew the law and treated people with respect.Can't have discipline for the poor without praise for the good as either without the other is futility.

 

[Hawkflyer]

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BobCav wrote:

Citizen wrote:

...Get a complaint to stick against them in their personnel file and their promotion prospects get a little "infringed."

Or get a letter of praise for an excellent encounter posted in their files and their promotion chances increase.  All because they knew the law and treated people with respect.  Can't have discipline for the poor without praise for the good as either without the other is futility.

Exactally, how is it that you never made Admiral? More to the point, why would you retire and leave all those young men at the mercy of "normal" government reward and punishment systems?

 

[BobCav]

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Hawkflyer wrote:

BobCav wrote:

Citizen wrote:

...Get a complaint to stick against them in their personnel file and their promotion prospects get a little "infringed."

Or get a letter of praise for an excellent encounter posted in their files and their promotion chances increase. All because they knew the law and treated people with respect.Can't have discipline for the poor without praise for the good as either without the other is futility.

Exactally, how is it that you never made Admiral? More to the point, why would you retire and leave all those young men at the mercy of "normal" government reward and punishment systems?

LOL... Just happy leading my troops on the deckplates and in the engineroom.

I passed that along to all of my troops and they themselves carry that on today themselves. I know becauseI still get calls, cards and e-mails from many of them. I sleep well at night knowing I taught them well and empowered them. True power is what you give away, not what you keep for yourself.

Fools want power, while wise men give it away.

 

[Legba]

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Bob makes a good point. Let's go to the trouble of bringing attention to those who recognize our rights and treat OCers in a dignified manner. Civil servants rarely get praise of any kind, so the supers in police departments might not be blamed for promoting the wrong people in the absence of such praise. It's easy enough to bitch about the ones who hassle people, and the uniforms are inured to such complaints.

However, I'm reminded of the Sheriff deputy who, when seeing me walking after my car broke down in the middle of the night on a country road, took me back to my car, got my shotgun off the back seat, handed it to me, and drove me to my doorstep in the next town about 15 miles away. Very good of him, and I called the sheriff to let him know. I doubt that would happen these days (this was 20 years ago), but still, that's all the more reason to be grateful when it does. God forbid, we might even have something like a civil society if people cultivated kindness or at least basic consideration for one another on a regular basis.

-ljp

 

[Narcisist]

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vrwmiller wrote:

As for educational purposes? I carry all the time, even in my home, so...it's only educational when I am OC'ing in public. It's educational, even if citizen's don't ask questions...why? Because, even if one of those people go to reasearch the legality of doing so, then I've educated that person, regardless of whether I know it or not.

This is absolutely true, because it's what brought me here. I had never thought it was possible and too expensive to get permits to be probable for someone like me. Until I saw someone OC'ing in a Walmart down the street.

I was too shy to ask, but as soon as I got home I jumped on my computer and now here I am. Taking a class next week I hope, and shopping for good holsters, reading and re-reading the applicable laws in case of LEO encounter before my permit arrives, and I've already had people asking me questions about it.

 

[AbNo]

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para_org wrote:

But I do give business card sized handouts. It is designed to be read in 10 seconds or so, which is about the recommended time frame to infuse an idea.

Any chance any of us can get that business card?

 

[Thediscgolfkid]

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http://www.cafepress.com/speakenglishnow

go there, i made the shirt any other ideas for shirts guys? i can make anything!

 

[unrequited]

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Thediscgolfkid wrote:

http://www.cafepress.com/speakenglishnow 

go there, i made the shirt any other ideas for shirts guys? i can make anything!

This is a small % profit store where our main goal is to make shirts that people want! were not MAINLY in it for the money, but I have to admit that it is fun to see the amout of money we bring in! It isnt even enough for gas, but its still a great hobby
It's not a hobby to rip people off in a community you haven't even begun to establish yourself in, it's rude. Cafepress's prices are a LOT lower than what you have listed there, but since you've taken to spamming this link in multiple threads, I'll follow you to each one to make sure people know their getting ripped off before buying.